Mary Edginton

I am shocked and saddened by the recent events and actions relating to Farouk Dindars message. Some classmates may not have even seen the posts before they were removed. Farouk is only the second "non-white" classmate to ever write on the website post. And look how we behaved!

Farouk had not realised the Benson Ngkona had died. And he wrote a short piece about him. I was pleased to read this as, like many of us, I had NO idea how Benson lived and died. I never took the trouble to get to know him, as with the other non-white (what a dreadful term) class members. This is a bad thing I will have to live with always.

At the end of his short description, including how Prof Tobias got to know Benson and always greeted him warmly, Farouk said (I can't quote direcly as it was chopped, so am paraphrasing) the apartheid "homelands" separated people just as Gaza is separated. There was no racial slur, it is a fact. Homelands were something we all santimoniously said were bad. I read no anti-semitism in what Farouk said.

Then one of our class wrote and said the  post should be restricted to birthdays and promotions and deaths and such innocuous things and that Farouks comment were out of place.  Farouk then said he wanted to come off the reunion 1966 website forum.

I take excception to the one-sided decision to accept  his removal rather than encouaging opinions and, as wise (supposedly) graduates and educated people, discussing the issues without getting petty.  Few such people take sides in this horrible war in which thousands of innocent people on each side are killed. 

The website I would prefer goes beyond birthdays and such, and allows for discussion on world events. Obviously direct critism and undermining of classmates views must not be allowed.

I have communicated my opinion to Farouk and feel ashamed of what has transpired.

With respect to all people with all views

Mary Edginton

Pat Nathan (Amitai)

I commend Mary on her post and agree with everything she has said. Mary, I wish you good health and thank you for voicing your opinion. I too was shocked by what transpired and would welcome an open forum for discussion on any topic we choose. 

Edward Gomperts

I understand and appreciate Mary's comments related to the recent notes regarding Farouk Dindar, as well her drawing us to focus on Benson Ngoma's memory. We were fortunate and privileged to have received our medical education through a superb institution that struggled with the oppressive political climate and regulations extant at the time. However, I was insulted and offended by Farouk Dindar's comments, and I suspect that these were made knowing and directed at the substantial numbers of Jewish members of the class. I thank Hilly for calling him on his statement.

Ed

Goolam Moosa

Martin First (First)

I have had a series of discussions with Farouk over the past few days. I feel that the vast majority of our class fail to recogsnize the stress and humililiation  experienced by the "minority students" at medical school during the apartheid days. Farouk has a strong committment to social justice. t believe that any atrocity, such as that committed by Hamas, does not justifiy the massacre of over 30,000 individuals, most of whom are innocent bystanders to this never ending conflict in the middle east.

Mary Edginton

Hello 1966 class

Apologies for posting again but this is important. I said I had to papaphrase Farouks message as it was wiped off the website, together with his name as though he never belonged to our class. What I said he said we not correct/

After describing Benson and Prof Tobias, Farouk said the following:  Hard to find it offensive to any side. I remain shocked and beg everyone to read the posts and make comments.

" Benson Ngona went a Bantustan to be a family doctor.
Bantustans are a history in South Africa.  I expect the Bantustans in West Bank will meet the same fate" 

Mary Edginton

Basil Porter

I realize that I am not going to change anyone's convictions through our website. The hugely complex issues around our guilt regarding our behavior towards the "minority" students in the class of 66, the politics of Israel over the fifty plus years since immigrating here, and the current trauma causing huge loss of life and a return of antisemitic activity world-wide, leave me with current feelings of disappointment veering to despair in my adopted home. As we all enter our ninth decade, I think we must reflect, discuss and forgive, without returning to cliches and fake news, together with much justifiable anger. Can we live our remaining years as at least colleagues, if not friends?

Margaret Spitz (Berman)

Basil has perfectly summarized how I feel and I totally agree with him.  I share the guilt that many have expressed.  However, this is the time in our lives when we need to f focus on our common interets and the good we have had and hopefully will still enjoy in the time we have left.  The situation is so complex and cannot be fairly analyzed and discussed in this forum.  I do hope that Farouk will rconsider his decision and rejon our group.

Happy Purim to those who celebrate it.

Margaret

Martin First (First)

I have asked Farouk to consider rejoing our website.

Keith Kanarek

No one is excused from making an antisemitic comment. It is time for Jews to stand up, call it out and stop remaining silent. I stand with Hilly and Ed Gomperts. Kol Hakavod (congratulations), Am Yisrael Chai (Israel lives)

Michael Belman

Dear classmates,

It has been eight days since the communication from Farouk. Since then, there has been a record number of class members accessing the website. (34 unique visits in the past 8 days) and several have added comments in the Message Forum section. They represent a range of opinions. Here is a summary of the recent events and posts. 

My Email of March 18 09.21

In the past 24 hours there has been an exchange of emails between Farouk Dindar and Hilly Hurwitz. At this stage, I am recommending that we stop all correspondence on this matter until we have had time to reconsider the best path forward. My impression is that we have reserved the website for exchange of personal information, birthday wishes, and stories of our careers and professional lives. I don't think we have ventured into the risky waters of overtly political discussions. I think we should keep that approach for the future. Of course, individuals are at liberty to correspond directly amongst themselves using their personal emails and not this website.

If you wish to make recommendations, please send them to me at michaelbelman43@gmail.com and we will convene a small group of class members to discuss. Any actions we consider would be discussed with all interested members. 

In response to the March 18 email Farouk sent an email to me requesting removal from the website. Per his request I did so. 

 Farouk's note on March 19.

please remove me from the group.  My memory of Wits and South Africa are painful.  Other doctors with Indian ancestry in Canada share the same feelings.

When a member is removed from the class list, the Class Creator template deletes all information including the profile information, photos and posts. As you can see this also deleted Farouk’s entry on Benson’s In Memory page. This process is not under independent control. 

I received 12 emails in response to my note of March 18 with general agreement that the website should be kept free of sensitive political discussions. Since then, there has been significant dissension from this approach and at least three members have voted for inclusion of a broad range of topics with the sound advice that this is done respectfully, and in a collegial manner. I did discuss this issue with both Mary Edginton and Pat Nathan who are in favor of allowing more open discussion. Until now there has not been any preview of comments so one and all are free to express their opinions and that remains the modus operandi.  It is always possible to revisit this question in the future. I wish to emphasize that my role is as administrator of the website, and I do not make unilateral decisions as to who or what should be included. 

There are suggestions to encourage Farouk back to the website most recently by Roy First per his post today (03/25). If Farouk chooses to return, he can do easily do this.

In the near future my suggestion would be to form a working group to address if and how we could improve the website. We are closing in on the 10-anniversary of the site which debuted in September 2014 in preparation for the 50^th year reunion. It could benefit from a refresh and while there are frequent visits more active participation, and more submissions could be rewarding. We also need volunteers to become site co-administrators, so we guarantee smooth succession when needed.

Martin First (First)

Mike & Fellow Classmates:

I have given a great deal of thought to this dilemma and also discussed with Farouk and others. To ignore the current situation in the middle east is akin to burying one's head in the sand and ignore the realities faced by "people of color" in our class some 60 years ago. Regardless of viewpoint, whaat has going on in the middle east is a profound disaster. As society leaders and educated individuals, we should be able to discuss this and express ou viewpoints in a mature way.

For peace, reconciliation and understanding,

Roy
 

Edward Gomperts

Excelent dicussion form our colleagues and there are a number of issues raised by the recent emails. First of all, I appreciate the opportunity to communicate with colleagues and this opportunity has attracted others not of the Class of 1966 which is an important and positive outcome. Given that we are all physicians with a life long experience within our particular fields of excellence, I much prefer to have an open discussion as we all have much to contribute. I am sure we recognize that what will be said will generate opinions that will not be accepted by all, and that is OK with me, as it should be impossible for as diverse a group as ours to find total agreement on almost anything, But  whatever is said, is, and will be of value, provided it is presented with respect. With that background in mind, the recent interactions have appropriately focused on the challenging and difficult experiences that our colleagues of color experienced during their medical training at Wits, and that which many of us did not.( I did not experience anti-semitism at any time that I can remember.) I must admit that this difficult situation was not foremost in my mind during my training, but some situations stick firmly in my memory. For example, remembering the disgusting behavior in the post mortem room presented by Mr Mopson, with no disciplining by his superiors, who were  themselves bigots. I get angry once again, just thinking about it. With that said, now turning to Farouk Dindar. It is his decision whether to rejoin our group, but I was impressed to learn of his refusing the WITS prize. Good for him. Nevertheless, his negative experiences years ago, does not excuse his recent and unrelated comment which demonstrates his bias, which in my opinion is equally dispicable as the insults he certainly experienced many years ago.

As to Roy's comment about the '30,000 killed', I agree this is terrible, awful and mind numbing in its enormity, especially as this was and is totally avoidable. However, he did not mention the babies who were beheaded, the children burned alive with and without their parents, the many hundreds of raped women with disfigured genitals. Such atrocities are beyond human behavior and must be treated as such. The '30,000' would not have been killed had those barbarians not woken up that morning. And so it is obvious to me that to prevent such a recurrence, it is encombant upon all decent and concerned, to do their best to ensure that these barbarians do not wake up again on any morning. While I am not in a position to contribute to such an event, the least I can do is express my opinion, but in as firm a way as I can. And I do this respectfully to all my colleagues, but with emotion. I am OK with any disagreement.

Martin First (First)

Eddie:

You are misquoting me. All that I said was: "Regardless of viewpoint, what has going on in the middle east is a profound disaster." This is true ror both sides. Nowhere did I say a word about 30,000 - please retrac.

Roy

Edward Gomperts

Roy,

I refered to your statement as copied from your note 3/23 at 3:14pm :   't believe that any atrocity, such as that committed by Hamas, does not justifiy the massacre of over 30,000 individuals, most of whom are innocent bystanders to this never ending conflict in the middle east.'

Unfortunately I cannot retract that which I wrote. However, and in addition, these many innocent bystanders would still be alive if their Hamas 'protectors' refrained from utilising men, women and children as human shields and not ignoring the definitive attempts by the Israeli army to limit such tragedies.

The hate exhibited by the Hamas operatives is very disturbing to me as a person and a Jew. This destructive hate has been seen before over the 3,000 plus years that our people have survived, but somehow we persist, flourish and continue to contribute to humanity's best advances.

Best regards,

Ed

Farouk Dindar

I am taking liberty to intrude here. I hope that I do not cause offence.

I am not a religious person but have read the English translation of the Quran in my youth.  Overall there is a great deal of respect  for the two other Abrahamic faiths , Judaism and Christianity in the Quran.  Jew were welcomed by the Turks when persecuted by the Christians in Europe.

In my youth in South Africa, there was a great deal of respect for Jews amongst the Muslims. It was the creation of Israel and the displacement of the Palestinians in the Nakba that has been the turning point in history in creating the antagonism between the Jews and the Muslims in particular the Palestinians.  Was there another option for the Jews than the creation of Israel after the Holocaust? 

Many events on October 7 have not been proven to be true such as wholesale rape and burning of babies. I would recommend 2 Websites owned by Jewish individuals to get closer to the truth.

Mondoweiss – News & Opinion About Palestine, Israel & the U.S.  

The Grayzone - The Grayzone

Here is a little anecdote related to me by my deceased uncle.  He was a member of the Indian Congress in South Africa which had a very close relationship with the progressive Jews.

My uncle, Amin Bhabha, related this conversation he had with Ruth First , wife of Joe Slovo, who was murdered by the apartheid regime in Mozambique with a car bomb.  In a discussion with Ruth , Amin mentioned that Jews needed a homeland. He was thoroughly scolded by Ruth.  "How can you create a new homeland and displace the indigenous people who have lived there for centuries?"   All the Jewish activists working with the liberation movement in South Africa were avowed non-Zionists.

Benny Skudowitz

 FROM WIKIPEDIA :

"In the 20th century, approximately 900000Jews migrated, fled, or were expelled from Muslim-majority countries throughout Africaand Asia. Primarily a consequence of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, the mass movement mainly transpired from 1948 to the early 1970s, with one final exodus of Iranian Jewsoccurring shortly after the Islamic Revolutionin 1979–1980. An estimated 650000 (72%) of these Jews resettled in Israel.^[1]"

Martin First (First)

What has occurred in the middle east is a disaster, regardless of one's political beliefs, ethnicity or religion. What is needed is peace, respect and reconciliation. Unfortunately, there is a lot of propaganda published by both sides, making it even more difficult to understand what is really happening. 

I have visited the websites that Farouk mentioned. Although Jewish owned, they may well be coming from owners who, much like my cousin Ruth, are avowed anti-Zionists; that is their right. Wikipedia may be correct about the number of Jews that left Muslim countries, but the question is whether they were expelled or whether this was voluntary migration now that they had a homeland of their own. I would imagine the latter.

This is a very emotional issue with very different points of view. All that I ask is that we show compassion and respect towards one another and stay away from personal attacks.

Farouk Dindar

Recently I have been hearing people who are thinking out of the Box.  "Two state solution is dead"

This is eloquently expressed by highly respected Gideon Levy

"Two-State Solution Is Dead Now": Senior Journalist | Israel Hamas War (youtube.com)

Martin First (First)

Suggested reading: “A Day in the Life of Abed Salama”  by Nathan Thrall a Jewish American author based in Jerusalem (his mother immigrated from Russia).

Basil Rapoport

In order to attain peace, which we all wish for, I feel it necessary to inject a dose of realism into this discussion. 

 It would be wonderful if Farouk could sit down and have coffee with some members of my extended family in Israel.   Their parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts came to Israel from Baghdad, in fear of their lives, having lost all their possessions and with only the clothes on their back.  I would like Farouk to ask their opinion about a “one state solution” with Israel converted to an Arab majority Palestine.  Does Farouk think it realistic to advocate the peaceful remerging of India and Pakistan?  Incidentally, contrary to a prevalent view of Israeli Jews, had this family lived in apartheid SA they would not have been allowed on a slegs blanke bus. 

Being realistic means not reinforcing one’s beliefs in an echo chamber of “AsaJew” (Weiss and Blumentahl) anti-Zionist websites, and only reading fringe journalists of the ilk of Gideon Levi.   Instead, a useful book to read would be ones such as “The Dream Palace of the Arabs” by the late Fouad Ajami.   Unfortunately, the unrealistic belief that Israel can be destroyed, contributing to violence and terrorism only strengthens right wing Jewish extremism and undermines the credibility of those who believe in the possibility of a non-threatening, peaceful Palestine living alongside Israel.

Edward Gomperts

First of all, I would like to welcome Farouk back to the 'Forum'.  I hope you remain with us. Good discussion all. Farouk raises a number of important points in his most recent note and I agree with him that over the centuries, Jews and Moslems have interacted positively. Some periods of Moslem Spain, the Ottomans as well as in Central Asia over centuries has shown that Jews and Moslems can and have lived peacefully together with the advancement for both societies. However that narrow strip of land between the river and sea is our main focus at this time and there is no doubt in my mind as well as many of my co-religionists, that although emotions run high regarding the land, a true peace between Israelis and Palestinians, when viewed by the majority of Jews, Israelis and diaspora, has been a realistic possibility from early in the 20th Century through the present. Not so with the majority of Moslems (but not all) wherever they have resided.

Although I do not reside in Israel, I have visited on a number of occasions and currently there is peace between Jewish Isrealis and Moslem Israelis, with freedom to work, raise families, fight in the Army and vote across all members of that society. Unfortunately that is not the case in Moslem countries and certainly not the case in the Palestinian Territories as few Jews live there. I doubt there was a single Jew permitted to live in Gaza before the current war. Jerusalem, that eternal city, is open to all religions and Moslems pray regularly at holy sites, which was not the case when the city was under the control of the Hashemite Kingdom. Unfortunately the current Gaza conflict widens the gap between these two societies, as the hate and death-pursuit demonstrated by Gazans has caused a deep concern among life-loving Jews. As I understand my religion,Judaism views life as a gift that is precious and vigorously to be protected.The religion is focused on the individual and the improvement of his/her behavior through all stages of life. Gazans and indeed many Palestinians have not demonstrated this reverence for life, either in the past or recently. Peace is possible and has been possible between Israel and Palestine for decades, but the Palestinian leadership and people must accept the reality of Israel as the home to all Jews as it has been through the centuries since the Roman expulsion. That traumatic event however drastic, did not result in the absence of Jews in that land, but rather there has been continuity of presence via a small and at times highly religiously productive nucleus. It is a small area, with a momentous history, but there is room today and tomorrow for both Israeli and Palestinian societies to live and thrive in peace.

Farouk Dindar

I learned a new term “AsaJew”   It sounds better than "Self Hating Jew"

I presume Avi Lewis fits that description

(Avi Lewis is the grandson of former federal New Democratic Party leader David Lewis and the son of former Ontario NDP leader and diplomat Stephen Lewis and journalist Michele Landsberg.)
 

John King

“Chag Pesach Sameach!” to all my Jewish friends & colleagues.  May the Lord bless & keep you all!  John King 

Robert Jacobson

Hi John, thank you for the Pesach Greetings In these troubled times may we all .be blessed with good health and Peace. Robert