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08/18/19 08:00 PM #346    

 

Robert Brownlow

There is a difference between climate and weather. As I understand it, weather happens within the container of climate. Weather changes "rapidly" and climate changes "slowly" - over a period of time.

It is clear to me that both our climate and weather are changing. We are a "closed system" and when we keep addiing poisons into the atmosphere there is no place for it to go except to change the composition of what is already here - including how much sunlight gets trapped.


08/18/19 08:38 PM #347    

Tom Chavez

Hello, all. Nice discussion.

 

In response to Robert Bramel: I’d have to agree, Bob, that it would help to know the source of their data. The graph may not be up to standard, but does it convey important information? That they may have a Christian frame of reference is irrelevant, unless they select or filter data to conform to it, as is the problem with evolutionary theory. There is abundant evidence from archeology, molecular biology, and thermodynamics that evolution cannot explain biological complexity. But the evolutionary paradigm is firmly ingrained and pride and prestige are at stake. 

 

Al, I agree that personal interests can impair objectivity, whether at NASA or elsewhere. I may accuse NASA (or whoever) of bias, but how to be sure that I am not biased? I empathize with your desire to retire to the peace and quiet of the countryside. Personally, I practice focusing inwardly upon consciousness, following yoga discipline, which can be done in any quiet place.

 

Gregg, you ask what explains the warm periods. I would agree with the factors you list, such as solar radiation and volcanic eruptions, but “Climate change” refers not just to natural variation due to the factors you list, but rather to a recent spike in global climate temperature.

 

The above graph compares global surface temperature changes (red line) and the Sun's energy received by the Earth (yellow line) in watts (units of energy) per square meter since 1880. The lighter/thinner lines show the yearly levels while the heavier/thicker lines show the 11-year average trends. Eleven-year averages are used to reduce the year-to-year natural noise in the data, making the underlying trends more obvious.

 

As temperatures started to rise, scientists became more and more interested in the cause. Many theories were proposed. All save one have fallen by the wayside, discarded for lack of evidence. One theory alone has stood the test of time, strengthened by experiments. 

 

We know CO2 absorbs and re-emits longwave radiation (Tyndall). The theory of greenhouse gases predicts that if we increase the proportion of greenhouse gases, more warming will occur (Arrhenius).

 

Scientists have measured the influence of CO2 on both incoming solar energy and outgoing long-wave radiation. Less longwave radiation is escaping to space at the specific wavelengths of greenhouse gases. Increased longwave radiation is measured at the surface of the Earth at the same wavelengths.

 

NASA refers to the following authorities (reference below). If we had time, we could study their research to understand their conclusions. Or we could just declare that they are all biased/crazy and trust our own unbiased sane judgement. Just kidding. Personally, I accept their concensus authority.

 

American Association for the Advancement of Science

"The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a growing threat to society." (2006)3

 

American Chemical Society

"Comprehensive scientific assessments of our current and potential future climates clearly indicate that climate change is real, largely attributable to emissions from human activities, and potentially a very serious problem." (2004)4

 

American Geophysical Union

"Human‐induced climate change requires urgent action. Humanity is the major influence on the global climate change observed over the past 50 years. Rapid societal responses can significantly lessen negative outcomes." (Adopted 2003, revised and reaffirmed 2007, 2012, 2013)5

 

American Medical Association

"Our AMA ... supports the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s fourth assessment report and concurs with the scientific consensus that the Earth is undergoing adverse global climate change and that anthropogenic contributions are significant." (2013)6

 

American Meteorological Society

"It is clear from extensive scientific evidence that the dominant cause of the rapid change in climate of the past half century is human-induced increases in the amount of atmospheric greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide (CO2), chlorofluorocarbons, methane, and nitrous oxide." (2012)7

 

American Physical Society

"The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now." (2007)8

 

The Geological Society of America

"The Geological Society of America (GSA) concurs with assessments by the National Academies of Science (2005), the National Research Council (2006), and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC, 2007) that global climate has warmed and that human activities (mainly greenhouse‐gas emissions) account for most of the warming since the middle 1900s." (2006; revised 2010)9

 

U.S. National Academy of Sciences

"The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify taking steps to reduce the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere." (2005)11

 

U.S. Global Change Research Program

"The global warming of the past 50 years is due primarily to human-induced increases in heat-trapping gases. Human 'fingerprints' also have been identified in many other aspects of the climate system, including changes in ocean heat content, precipitation, atmospheric moisture, and Arctic sea ice." (2009, 13 U.S. government departments and agencies)12

 

Reference: https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/


08/19/19 02:16 PM #348    

 

Al Peffley

The AMA is an organization of practitioners of the art of medicine, not climate change scientists. Just because they agree with theories of the proposed CAUSE of world climate change does not make them physics subject matter experts (they seem to have enough trouble with body chemistry "tuning" through diet control and choosing the right exercise program for each individual - LOL!) 

Photosynthesis, look up the scientific description of the process to understand how the earth's vegetation continues to exist and how oxygen is produced as a byproduct of sunlight and CO2 absorption within plant life cells. AOC is an ignorant little twit when it comes to sustaining life on earth (as the former scientist who started Green Peace described her from AOC's self-labeled "cheap seats" in her power control pyramid.)

There is no such thing as the earth's "Greenhouse" gases. Google the definition of a greenhouse and read how an agriculture greenhouse process works. The earth's atmosphere is not a greenhouse system. Greenhouse gas is another political spin term created by UN climate change proponents and questionable scientists to communicate with the impressionable masses. It is not science-derived. Yes, we are all biased in some way. Biology is a systems science of living things based on physics, chemistry, and energy sciences.

The table of temperature change of over 100 years of data collection is less than one degree Celcius, if I'm reading your last graph correctly, Tom. That is not exactly an astonishing variance considering the history of heat and cold cycles, no matter who's graph and information summaries of recorded temperature readings that you are presenting for review. All of life here depends on the sun's energy, the atmospheric content effects, the earth's geological evolution, and the ability of the earth to generate water and oxygen for sustaining life as we know it. None of those planetary attribute systems are under human control.

I have read as Gregg brought up that one major volcanic eruption spews more "undesired" gases from your EP reduction list than all of the carbon compound-fueled vehicles and motorized power generators that people have used in the US since they were fielded after 1900. This statement could be wrong, but as a former ocenography student it makes sense to me. The gas and particulate outputs are measureable on the earth and from satellites more accurately today.

Hydrogen is the perfect "clean" elemental fuel for transportation propulsion systems, but it is very explosive in its condensed cryogenic gas storage state. Hydrogen gas burns with clear flame (which is hard to detect by sight, and it is also very hard to seal gas feed lines.) Using a hydrogen reformer, like a methonal fuel cell, reduces the hazard and also does not require a battery bank for vehicle electric drive motors or portable electric power generation. It is a NASA space program development item that was optimized during the Apollo Program for space and ground vehicles. It is CLEAN ENERGY technology that works. Why are there not more proponents from the environmental protection community? The only fuel more powerful that I know of for a clean energy source is harnessed nuclear energy.

Our star, which we call the "Sun", is decaying and so is the earth (proven observations from many scientific sources) -- can we agree upon that? The earth's orbital position, shape (it's not perfectly round), tilt, spin rate, core thermodynamic changes, and plate shifts all greatly effect its land mass, ocean, and atmosphere temperature and pressure. To equate physical atmospheric issue solutions with control of cow farts and reducing the earth's population is political manipulation, not science. The climate change guilt trip propaganda is being used as a means to control our society. It leads to a societal engineerng dead end (psychologically, and eventually altering cultures physically.) It is intentionally devisive to achieve its goal - global governance of people by Orwellian-style global power seekers.

Learning to live with what we've got and be good stewards of the resources we can control is part of personal responsibilty, discipline, and reasonable resources use actions (none of which can be solved by politically-motivated governance programs.) I don't have to be a Christian or doctoral scientist to perceive those observations, just a rational person who wants his personal freedoms sustained as defined in our unique, US Constitution. Climate change anxiety in my view is a dysfuctional, emotional dead end. It is not productive in helping other people during our short lifetime here on the "big blue marble".

You will not get many disciples of these UN climate change programs south of the US border. Central and South America countries just want the wealth redistributuin from our Republic's successful economy and applied technologies. The originators of these UN Agenda 21-linked programs were activists from British Columbia, Canada (Maurice Strong, etc.) Canadian extremists have done more damage to our nation and sustainment of our God-given indivdual freedoms than many Americans realize. They are dispised by many farmers and patriots in the Canadian heartland. They advise the Pope. They often chair UN and EU councils.

We are here to help people as best we can, not micro-manage every little detail of their existence through overly restrictive, world government environmental policies, regulations, and laws (that primarily benefit religious zealots, totalitarian leaders, and deceitful fascists.) We are not here to divide and conquer.

Situations are as they are, but I choose my action or inaction in response to how I perceive their practical value in my life. Communism always dresses itself up to look so good to the dependent masses. We should be people of good will in managing our resources and truly caring for other people.

I'll get off my soap box now.

Cheers,

Al


08/19/19 03:46 PM #349    

 

Gregg Wilson

Hi Robert Brownlow,

The climate is not a closed system. External causes are the Sun and its changing luminosity and erupting volcanoes.

You seem to imply that a short term change in our atmoshere is weather but not climate. Let's look at shorter term change: Day and night. Cause: the Earth rotates. So day is when we get locally get sun light and night is when we locally don't get sun light. Caused by.......weather???

The second axium of existence is cause and effect. Something is a cause and the result is an effect.

Carbon dioxide is a poison? Tell that to the plants.

In order for a gas to be a poison, it has to chemically react with something. That action consumes the poison. A true inert might build up in the atmosphere, such as Helium.

Carbon dioxide is released and consumed, and it is not a pioson.

You seem to be inclined to the idea that our system should be static.

Not so. 


08/19/19 04:15 PM #350    

 

Gregg Wilson

Hi Tom Chaves,

Interesting statement of "consensus authority". One has to have credentials and authority in order to have valid thought, ideas? Not so.

Did Galileo have consensus and authority? Apparently not.

Consensus and authority does not determine reality. Reality is independent of what humans think it is. We might come up with a concept that is congruent with reality, but that is all.

You can and have presented huge, major authorities that have formed a consensus that carbon dioxide is the cause of global warming. But based on what objective evidence and what objective cause and effect?

I have presented objective causes of global warming and global cooling.

But, God knows, I dont't have authority and consensus

Next subject that I will bring up is the ozone layer.


08/19/19 04:23 PM #351    

 

Gregg Wilson

Al Peffley, You have presented very good arguments and objective data.

BUT YOU DON'T HAVE CONSENSUS AND AUTHORITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


08/20/19 12:51 AM #352    

Tom Chavez


08/20/19 08:04 AM #353    

 

Virginia Wolfe (Scheffer)

Well you guys have all had interesting for/against arguments, but the owl pictures answer it all!


08/20/19 01:19 PM #354    

 

Al Peffley

Gregg, you are right in saying that I don't have "consensus" (here) and authority (I may not be accepted as an academic equal in this lively discoarse). God so loved the world that he did not send a Committee to save humans from endless studies and United Nations' initiatives governance.

I am not a card-carrying committee member of the United Nations or a group of owls, just a lowly retired systems engineering and financial analyst who rambles on about things. It was good to use my brain again for a lively discussion about atmospheric earth sciences and biology. Thanks for the opportunity here to speak about something other than a classmate dying -- getting old isn't for woosies. Using our brain power helps to keep us alive.

The book shown below is written by a Democrat who studied UN Agenda 21 and found it not to be to her liking. She is not a scientist or an expert in politics, just a concerned individual who can think for herself. She has spoken out against a UN consensus committee of international authority elitists who want to control the earth's population size and all of its personal property assets. The mechanism of control and takerover of private real estate property is the UN's International Property Maintenance Code (IPMC). The goal of coarse is to Save our Planet because you and I aren't smart enough to do that by ourselves or as a group. Heir Inslee has "volunteered" the State of Washington as a partnership participant in UN IPMC implementaion (and all of its future implementation updates). This was quietly done without statewide voter consensus and voter authority. My local City Council embraced it without most voters' knowledge of the IPMC being adopted as city code or what that encompasses. The book is an interesting read. We are fighting back against the IPMC, Sustainable Development Comprehensive Plans, and the ultimate Green New Deal at our county government level. If we push too hard then the State threatens to cut off Federal Grant monies that they manage and distribute to complying counties. It's a form of political blackmail that usually works.

A local residence building and land were impounded by the City of Kelso because a young woman owner lost her job, abandoned her house, and failed to pay her taxes. It was auctioned off to a local house remodeling contractor who was the highest bidder. The winning bidder was then refused entry until the property was brought up to the most current IPMC Standards by a certified government contractor (not the bidder). This building is within my County Precinct. I am an elected  Cowlitz County Precinct Committee Officer representing approximately 200 households.

Once a property turns over the new owner must update all facilties to the prevailing United Nations IPMC. Eventually all of these "substandard" conditions, that require UN-approved hardware and modifications to the building, will be controlled and maintained solely by local and state government entities (including the changing of a simple circuit breaker that can only be accomplished by an authorized installer approved and certified under the UN's IPMC.) You will slowly relinquish the ownership and maintenance of your house's electric power circuits box to the state. This is, of course, all voluntary and enforced by the local government with IPMC committee aproval at a Cascadia regional level. Inslee always represents you and me, doesn't he??? Florida withdrew its participation in the IPMC after the endorsing Governor (Jeb Bush) was replaced by the voters. G.H.W. Bush signed Agenda 21, and Bill Clinton and Al Gore implemented it. Is the boiling water in the consensus "pot" that is controlled by NWO authorities hot enough yet? I am not making this up.

Cheers,

Al


08/20/19 03:17 PM #355    

 

Gregg Wilson

Hi Al,

For me, you are preaching to the choir. No complaints at all.


08/21/19 03:42 PM #356    

Tom Chavez

I’ve never run into the problems Al describes about the IPMC. That helps explain your agitprop about ‘global elite’, ‘population control’, and ad hominem attacks on Al Gore, AOC, etc. Al writes that he considers climate change anxiety to be dysfunctional. Tell that to the people living on the coasts of Bangladesh, Miami and New Orleans. Congress has passed legislation signed by President Trump instructing our military leadership to plan for climate change threats to national security. Don’t let your political anxiety outweigh scientific objectivity. 

 

Academic and scientific institutions attempt to select, support and develop the best experts by peer review, etc. Industry, government and military depend upon these institutions. Their authority is derived from their expertise, knowledge and results. American scientific and educational institutions are admired and emulated around the world.

 

Cliff Harris and Randy Mann are not recognized authorities. I’m not saying they are wrong, but I don’t see the evidence to support their view. One may prefer their view for political reasons. American institutions have achieved superiority with a policy of keeping politics out of science as much as possible.

 

Gregg, as for reality “being objectively independent of what humans think it is”, I would parry that reality is interactive. We all participate in creating reality. Some aspects are susceptible to human influence and some are not. In quantum mechanics the observer influences the observed. Similarly, our thoughts, words and deeds can influence and change the course of human affairs. 

 

In quantum mechanics position, momentum and direction of spin are considered to be not only unknown, but to not exist in any definite state until they are measured or observed. Observation causes ‘collapse of the probabilistic wave function’ into a definite state. The subjectivity of the observer influences the result, as shown by numerous studies, such as the ‘mini-PK’ experiments conducted by Robert Jahn of Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory at Princeton University.

 

An individual may challenge the consensus or status quo, and create revolutionary change as did Jesus Christ, Hitler, Buddha, Mohamed, Karl Marx, Thomas Jefferson, Gandhi, etc. They created new consensus, at least among their followers. Democracy is based on consensus. 

 

Obviously, one shouldn’t accept consensus blindly. I disagree with the prevailing consensus on Darwinian evolution. Since 1961 it has been known that the number of possible nucleotide chains is far too great for natural selection to work in the time available (this is called the combinatorial problem). In the recent decade it has become obvious that mutations powerful enough to produce a new species are invariably deadly. The idea that natural forces can create information sufficient for a human genome wildly contradicts the second law of thermodynamics. Archeology and geology offer abundant evidence that modern evolutionary theory is wrong. But a majority consensus refuse to discuss or look at the evidence.

 

We are each individually responsible for our own choices and actions, and the inevitable subsequent reactions. It behooves us to inform ourselves, to keep an open mind, and to practice introspection, self-control and equipoise. We are in a complicated but rational reality of causes and effects, and we are the architects of our own destiny.

 

Off my soapbox.


08/21/19 11:16 PM #357    

Laurel Hoefer (Gerla)

Allen, well said. Thank you for clarity without too much scientific gobbledygook..

 

 


08/24/19 03:26 PM #358    

Tom Chavez

Creation of Sexual Reproduction by Intelligent Design

 

On the sixth day God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him. God named him Adam. But Adam was lonely. When God realized that Adam wasn’t happy, He asked him why. Adam told God that he was lonely. 

 

God thought about that and then told Adam, “Son, I’m going to give you a companion. She will cook and clean for you, bear your children, and never wake you in the middle of the night to help care for the children. She will not nag, she will not whine, and she will serve you hand and foot without complaint and with sweet words and a smile on her face, and she will be called woman.” 

 

Adam asked God what this would cost him. God answered, “An arm and a leg.” Adam thought about it and said, “What can I get for a rib?”


08/24/19 03:32 PM #359    

Tom Chavez

Sexual Reproduction and the Theory of Evolution

 

The standard definition of a species for sexually reproducing organisms requires that members of the same species can mate and create fertile offspring. Different species cannot interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Species are divided into varieties. Varieties, unlike species, can interbreed freely and produce fertile offspring. Darwin agreed with this definition.

 

The crux of Darwin’s argument is that varieties can gradually become species through breeding: “Varieties are species in the process of formation, or are, as I have called them, incipient species.” In the first chapter of On the Origin of Species, “Variation under Domestication,” he implies that with enough time and crossbreeding species could be bred until they become a new species. 

 

In his second chapter, “Variation under Nature,” Darwin argues that nature  can breed varieties until they become species by a process of natural selection.

 

As it turns out, Darwin was wrong about how much change actually occurs in varieties. We now know that nature has placed limits on how far a species can change. By breeding dogs, we can produce varieties of dogs, but we can’t produce a cat or a muskrat. Breeding simply shuffles and recombines already existing traits (genes).

 

The American botanist and plant breeder, Luther Burbank (1849–1926) stated: “I can develop a plum half an inch long or one two and a half inches long, with every possible length in between, but I am willing to admit that it is hopeless to get a plum the size of a pea or a grapefruit.”

 

The noted French zoologist Pierre Grassé (1895–1985) agreed: “In spite of intense artificial selection (eliminating any parent not answering the criteria of choice) over whole millennia, no new species are born. A comparative study of sera, hemoglobins, blood proteins, etc., proves that strains remain within the same specific definition. This is not a matter of opinion or subjective classification, it is a measurable reality. The fact is that selection gives tangible form to all the varieties that a genome is capable of producing, but does not constitute an innovative evolutionary process.”

 

In 1982 Francis Hitching wrote similarly about selective breeding: “It is now absolutely clear that there are firm natural limits to what can be done. Remarkable achievements can be made by crossbreeding and selection inside the species barrier, or within a larger circle of closely related species, such as wheats. But wheat is still wheat, and not, for instance, grapefruit. Between 1800 and 1878, the sugar content of beets was raised from 6 to 17 per cent. A half century of further breeding failed to make any difference.”

 

Darwin’s notion that varieties could turn into species was wishful thinking and not based on actual evidence.

 

The other thing that Darwin got wrong was the mechanism of inheritance, and this soon became obvious as the science of genetics advanced. Natural selection alone is not enough to create a new species. Natural selection cannot create, it can only select from among the varieties created by breeding. If breeding does not create something new, natural selection cannot select it.

 

Darwin believed that the variation needed for his theory would be provided by external influences on the organisms. He thought that cows udders would become larger when they were regularly milked, and that this change could be passed on to offspring: “There can be little doubt that use in our domestic animals strengthens and enlarges certain parts, and disuse diminishes them; and that such modifications are inherited.” 

 

However, this idea is now known to be incorrect. We may lift weights and develop muscles like steel, but our children will not be born with larger muscles. In some cultures women enlarge their lips and earlobes, but their daughters are not born with bigger lips or earlobes than girls in other culture.

 

Darwin was wrong in assuming that either environment or natural selection creates new characteristics. Natural selection simply eliminates those individuals that don’t have the favorable traits already.

 

Just when Darwin was publishing Origin Gregor Mendel (1822–1884) was studying the laws of inheritance. He performed extensive experiments crossing different varieties of plants and noting how their characteristics were passed from one generation to the next.

 

Mendel concluded that heredity involves a transmission of constant factors that determine an organism’s traits. Although the factors can be mixed and matched during reproduction, they remain discrete and unchanging from one generation to the next.

 

A simple way to understand the difference between Mendel’s and Darwin’s views is to think of a deck of cards. By shuffling the deck one can combine the cards in a variety of ways, but no new cards will arise in the process. This was Mendel’s correct view of inheritance. Darwin, on the other hand, incorrectly imagined a process of pangenesis that changed the cards into new cards.

 

Mendel’s laws of genetics have been established for over a century. But evolutionists still recycle erroneous Darwinian ideas. In 1993 the American biologist Christopher Wills wrote: “The force that seems to have accelerated our brain’s growth is a new kind of stimulant: language, signs, collective memories—all elements of culture. As our cultures evolved in complexities, so did our brains, which then drove our culture to still greater complexity. Big and clever brains led to more complex cultures, which in turn led to bigger and cleverer brains.”

 

This kind of imaginative speculation continues to promote evolution as a kind ideological propaganda in the guise of science. Darwinism has permeated society and the theory has left the realm of hypothesis and moved into the realm of an ideological “established fact,” something not to be doubted.

 

In 1967, the Wistar Institute hosted a conference called “Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution” attended by mathematicians and evolutionary biologists. The mathematicians argued that it is statistically impossible that complex organs, such as the eye, could have evolved by a series of small random mutations; there hasn’t been enough time in the earth’s history for those mutations to have occurred. This is called the combinatorial problem.

 

The biologists accused the mathematicians of “doing science backwards.” Evolution, they said, is an established fact; the eye had evolved. A leading evolutionist at the conference, Ernst Meyer, said, “Somehow or other by adjusting these numbers we will come out alright. We are comforted by the fact that evolution has occurred.”

 

Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould wrote: “Einstein’s theory of gravity replaced Newton’s, but apples did not suspend themselves in midair pending the outcome. And human beings evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin’s proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be identified.”

 

Of course, we can directly observe apples falling, but we do not observe a common ancestor for apes and humans, nor humans being born of apes. It is a fact that humans are biochemically and physically more similar to apes than other species. But having a shared ancestor via evolution is a theory, not a fact. It may be plausible to those who have a materialistic worldview, but it may nonetheless be false.

 

In his 1990 book, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism, Tim Berra compared fossils to a series of automobile models: “If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be doubted by reasonable people.”

 

Of course, everyone knows that cars are designed in advance by intelligent designers. Their similarity is not the result of an unguided Darwinian process. What Berra actually showed is that resemblance between species might be due to design. But because he was so convinced of the fact of evolution, he saw even a contradictory example as evidence for evolution.

 

In short, evolution became dogma in Darwin’s time and has remained dogma ever since. Although there is abundant evidence against evolution, most evolutionists refuse to look at the evidence and instead have taken on the task of finding mechanisms to account for what they already accept as a fact.


08/24/19 04:28 PM #360    

 

Gregg Wilson

Tom Chaves,

In regard to your thoughts on Darwin's theory of evolution, I am in complete agreement with you.

The hysteria about carbon dioxide is complely owned by Al Gore. Big Al lost all credibility a long, long time ago when he claimed he was a combat veteran of Viet Nam. Currently, he is encompassing religion into his crusade against carbon dioxide. "If the facts don't convince them then belief and faith will."

We cannot change the fundamentals of Reality. If so, then the Wright brothers could have thought that a bath tube will fly and it would! Instead, they obeyed  the facts of Reality and built an airplane which they flew. You can change our future within the bounds of Reality.

Can we change gravity?

Consensus has proclaimed that gravity is attractive. One small problem. Isaac Newton said it was not attractive.

I quote Isaac Newton "That one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum, without mediation of anything, by and through which their action and force  is conveyed from one to the other, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no man who has in philsophical matters a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it."

The problem would be solved by Le Sage of Switzerland in 1745.

So consensus does not determine Reality.


08/24/19 06:23 PM #361    

 

Diane Paulson

Thank you, Tom Chavez


08/24/19 09:48 PM #362    

Tom Chavez

Gregg, you can't be serious. LeSage postulates that the shadows two nearby bulky bodies make in the omnidirectional stream of aetherial corpuscles cause an imbalance in the net forces leading to their mutual attraction. 

Newton would not hypothesize what causes gravity. He commented in his second edition of Principia"I have not yet been able to discover the cause of these properties of gravity .... It is enough that gravity does really exist and acts according to the laws I have explained, and that it abundantly serves to account for all the motions of celestial bodies."

Einstein explained that gravity corresponds to changes in the properties of space and time caused by massive bodies, which in turn change the straightest-possible paths that objects will naturally follow. This effect was initially confirmed by observing the light of stars or distant quasars being deflected as it passed the Sun 

Therefore, Einstein said, you can't blame gravity for falling in love.

Maybe gravitons.


08/25/19 10:46 AM #363    

 

Marty Ellison

Tom,     “In short, evolution became dogma in Darwin’s time and has remained dogma ever since. Although there is abundant evidence against evolution, most evolutionists refuse to look at the evidence and instead have taken on the task of finding mechanisms to account for what they already accept as a fact.”

This sounds to me like a religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


08/25/19 02:46 PM #364    

 

Gregg Wilson

Tom Chavez,

You should take a more critical look at what Le Sage proposed. Perhaps you could read Pushing Gravity, which examines Le Sage's proposal. The best article within is written by astronomer Tom Van Flandern.

It is true that Isaac Newton said that he did not know the how, why and what of gravity - which indicates that he did not think that his Universal Law of Gravity demonstrated that gravity is attractive. Actually he said so in my quotation of him. Attraction by two bodies distant from one another is magic.

In our atmosphere, the distance traveled by one molecule before it hits another is extremely minute. Therefore, our atmosphere rapidly fills in a vacuum. That is not the case with proposed gravitons (a universal flux of gravitons throughout the Universe). In depth examination of gravitons is that their mean free distance before they hit one another is vastly more that a light year.

So between the Earth and the Moon, there is cylinder (funnel) in which there is a deficit of gravitons traveling between the Earth and the Moon, because both the Earth and Moon have mutually blocked gravitons on their outward sides. Thus there is a net imbalance in the graviton flux and the two bodies are pushed toward one another. No magic.

Einstein's claim that space time are bent, curled, whatever is nonsense. The experimental results about light being bent around the Sun is adequately explained by other factors. The dimensions of space and time are not objects but properties of Existence.


08/25/19 05:14 PM #365    

 

Al Peffley

Pretty heavy stuff guys, but you are having an interesting debate and dialog. Marty, you are right in saying Darwin's evolution discussions and theories became a "religion" to many athiests who wanted to push the idea of a creator of the universe out of their mind and life. I remember reading an article written by Darwin where he said that he never intended to make a religion out of his studies. He said his intent was to discover the way living systems change over time and any connections that may be possible between species.

Since I chose the "art" (not science) of developing transportation systems, defense systems, and space systems for humans' use through technology development projects over continuing by biological sciences career, I have focused my professional work life on non-living hardware and software systems. Everything created in these aerospace projects by humans was intended for the human race. That said, artificial intelligence command & control and integrated robotic systems advances are making headway in performing simple tasks more accurately and faster than humans can do those tasks. The combination of human subject matter experts and advanced robotics systems in verification and validation proof testing for complex scientific solution hypothses can hopefully decrease the time and resources it takes to prove new laws of science (or correct mythical law beliefs.)

We are always learning and improving our perception of reality by being inquisitive, disciplined, and open-minded (hopefully.) Those who make emotional interpretations of theoretical (sometimes consensus-driven) studies into a religion often can be close-minded to verified & validated observations of physical and social interaction "reality". Those who use scientific information (processed and summarized data) and statistics for control of society are often egotistical power-seekers, not objective scientists in their field(s) of acredited academics. Enstein may not always have been correct, but he was reported to be a humble person who genuinely cared about people of the Human Race. Albert was not a societal manipulator (from what I have read about his life and his quotes on life.)

Religion is a man-made social system here on earth, not a byproduct of God. There is no such thing as "Mother Earth" or "Mother Nature" (in the cult of Agenda 21), but only a form of religious cult term to avoid the use of the term "Divine Creator" used commonly by people of faith in many cultural religions. I choose liberty and freedom as a freeman over political world cults. It's my right as a child of God (defined as "I AM".) A human chosing to be part of AM NOT is a product of free will, which we all have the liberty to decide for ourselves. In the end, we all die physically alone unless we believe otherwise -- it's our cultural right as Americans of the Human Race. We are the dominent "animals" on planet earth. If we are divided and full of evil, we most likely won't be the dominant species.

The United States of America is defined as a "Republic" form of governing, not a democracy. Read what the Founding Fathers wrote about democracies (especially Thomas Jefferson.) We have a Republic based on (God-given) individual rights of good will and freedom to live productively that is unique to the world -- even with its human flaws, lets strive to keep it that way!

Cheers,

Al


08/25/19 08:41 PM #366    

Tom Chavez

Marty, it depends upon the meaning of religion.

 

My dictionary defines religion to be the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

 

Materialistic evolution doesn’t accept divinity, so it is not a religion in that sense. I think of it as a mistaken hypothesis or, for those who are more faith based, a delusion. It is not really science if they refuse to look at opposing evidence.

 

Einstein said that religion without science is sentiment or fanaticism; science without religion is blind. I agree with that.


08/25/19 08:43 PM #367    

Tom Chavez

Gregg, 

 

Einstein predicted that light would be bent by a large mass like the sun, and this was proven true. That’s pretty incredible right there.

 

He also predicted gravitational waves, and scientists had enough confidence in his theory to build billion dollar LIGO detectors in Washington, Louisiana and Italy to detect them. And that has proven successful. Accurate prediction is strong confirmation of theory.

 

Both gravitational waves and the bent path of light near massive objects are compatible with warping or rippling of space-time “fabric”, which is how most scientists describe gravity. Thus, the earth warps space and forms a gravity well, out of which we must climb to leave the planet.

 

The graviton is theorized to be the carrier of the gravitational field, just like a photon is the carrier of the electromagnetic field. But such a graviton is also impossible to detect with modern technology. Its existence is unconfirmed.

 

You suggest that gravity is caused by a flux of gravitons between earth and moon, but how would that account for the attraction or, as you call it, the ‘pushing together’ of every thing on earth—grains of sand, mountains, people, etc.—toward the center of the earth? Especially if, as you say, the mean free distance between gravitons is vastly more than a light year?

 

Gravitons are expected to travel at the speed of light, as do gravity waves and light. If there is more than a light year between them, it would be quite a while between subsequent gravitons. What keeps everything down on earth between gravitons? 

 

What are the ‘factors’ which you claim account for the bending of light around massive objects? And how would gravitons create gravity waves in your theory?


08/25/19 09:29 PM #368    

Tom Chavez

Al, you offer some pretty heavy statements. Allow me to suggest some alternative views.

 

You write: “Religion is a man-made social system here on earth, not a byproduct of God.” 

 

I think of religion as the “laws of God”, for example, the ten commandments which were given to Moses by God, and revelations in sacred literatures like the Bible, Torah, and Vedas. The essential instruction of religion is to love God. For example, Srimad Bhagavatam states: “The supreme dharma (duty or religion) for all human beings is that by which one attains loving devotional service to the transcendent Lord. Such service must be unmotivated (by selfish desire) and uninterrupted, in order to completely satisfy the self.” Any system which helps one to attain love of God is religion, and that which is useless for developing love of God can be religion in name only.

 

Of course, people distort and hijack religion for political, economic and other selfish ends. But to reject all religion for that reason is to throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

You write: “There is no such thing as "Mother Earth" or "Mother Nature" (in the cult of Agenda 21), but only a form of religious cult term to avoid the use of the term "Divine Creator" used commonly by people of faith in many cultural religions.”

 

One Greek philosopher said, in our body we find small amounts of liquids, solids and gases; and in the greater world we find huge quantities of these things. Similarly, in our body we have small quantities of intelligence and consciousness, and in the greater world we can expect to find great quantities.

 

Most spiritual traditions teach that there are many kinds of higher beings like angels, archangels, demigods, Gandharvas, apsaras, and a Supreme Lord. For example, in Greece, China and India people believe in a moon god, sun god, etc. The Vedas say that each planet is predominated by a conscious being. So, why not Mother Earth? In the Vedas Mother Earth is quoted as saying, “I can bear any heavy weight, except that of a liar.”

 

We are all children of God and part of a great spiritual family. Consciousness is conserved, it has no beginning or end. Empirical evidence for this is found in out-of-body experiences, near death experiences, and past life memories. The soul is eternal. Where there is consciousness there is soul. Matter has no consciousness. Every living entity is a creature of God, and should be respected as such.

 

We consider ourselves American human beings, but that is only a temporary designation of the material body. When we leave this body, such designations lose meaning. Beneath the material covering we are actually spiritual beings, part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit. Human life is an opportunity to get out of the cycle of transmigration, the cycle of birth and death.

 

Real evolution means to attain our original spiritual nature, in a divine realm of eternity, knowledge and bliss. No one wants birth, disease, old age and death. These sufferings are forced upon us by our karma. We should use our intelligence to learn how to free ourselves from suffering. Every animal eats, sleeps, mates and defends. We waste our human opportunity if we only use our life for these animal propensities.

 

Cheers!


08/25/19 11:23 PM #369    

 

Gregg Wilson

Tom,

Both you and Einstein give yourself away when both of you refer to the space-time fabric. There is no fabric. The ordinates space and time are dimensions of Existence. Without them, there would be no Existence. But

Existence exists.

If you want to argue against that axiom, then make it damn quick, because you do not exist.

Let us go to the Michelson-Morley experiment. They measured the speed of light in two orthogonal directions.  Their measured difference was 9 km/sec at ground level. There is a great conceptual error by Michelson-Morley and scientists in general. The speed of light waves is not going to be the speed of the meduim that light waves pass through. Later the experiment was conducted on top of Mt. Wilson and measured 10 km/sec. Later experiment through the COBE satellite indicated that the Earth is moving at 365 km/sec against the light carrying medium outside of galaxies.

So the "ether" does exist and light is a wave, not a particle. The concept of light being a wave satisfies all experiments done on light. The particle theory fails to to explain several light experiments.  The photon is not a carryer of light. (It does not exist) So now we have a light carrying medium.

Einstein's prediction about the Sun bending light waves - in a medium does not prove his assertion that the dimensions are somehow bent. Gravtational waves? Not proved at all.

If gravitons traveled from the Sun to the Earth at the speed of light then they would have "aberration", which means that they would arrive too late at Earth. The Earth and all the other planets would wander away from the Sun and there would be no solar system. The direct indication is that the carrier of gravity has to be vastly faster then the velocity of light.

The distance between gravitons is not a light year. The mean free distance a graviton can travel is more than a light year before it impacts another graviton. Countless trillions of gravitons would be impacting the Earth every second.

When a graviton enters the Earth, it loses velocity as it passes through normal matter. On its way out it would lose more velocity. Thus gravitons leaving the Earth would have a much lower velocity than gravitons arriving at the Earth. There is your gravitational difference between up and down.

We cannot see a proton. Why would we see a graviton, which is orders of magnitude smaller.

We have arrived at the issue of peer review and consensus. Both these actions protect old ideas from new ideas. The old ideas are enshrined and must not be doubted.


08/26/19 01:10 PM #370    

 

Gregg Wilson

Hi Al Peffley,

I am in total agreement with you. Yes, Thomas Jefferson was opposed to "pure" democracy and for a constitutional republic with a bill of rights. Don't quit your postings. You are preaching to the choir.

 


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