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11/10/25 09:59 AM #18613    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Joan,I also am appalled my Elon Musk.  He has done nothing but cause severe pain to people in our country and abroad. 
Nori, this is for you from an article from the Washington Post. 
"The Trump administration over the weekend ordered states to stop distributing full food assistance benefits for November to the 42 million low-income Americans at risk of food insecurity..."  Nori, how can you support what he is doing? Love, Joanie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


11/10/25 12:02 PM #18614    

 

Jack Mallory

We've killed six more human beings today, just because Trump said to. No arrests, no charges, no evidence, no convictions. Just because a man with 34 felonies and an even longer track record for lies said to. And we, you and I, paid for it. God bless America. 


11/10/25 12:03 PM #18615    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Yikes! I thought I would find some upbeat nature photos, a few happy birthday wishes (yes, today is the right date) & at least an ounce of jubilation over the shutdown possibly ending after 8 courageous Dems joined Fetterman. But apparently being miserably appalled at Trump wins the day. Joan, you're rant is a bit too much for me to address. Suffice it to say our lenses are distant from one another but to me "combatants" certainly can be anyone who targets & attacks Americans, including those who bring drugs as weapons in an ongoing war on drugs. For me, ICE is doing its job. But, like all law enforcement, mistakes are sometimes made. Did you or Joanie or any Jaybirds scratch the surface of Obama's mountain of deportations to see who (you thought) should & shouldn't be deported?  If so, do tell your findings. Lemme guess you did not. Why? Because of your bias against Trump. As for Coasties... seriously? That you believe that reference is somehow disrespectful or unacceptable tells me all I need to know about our differences. 
Happy Birthday to me 


 

 


11/10/25 01:01 PM #18616    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Jack, the fact that the numbers of drug running boats are continuing to diminish seems to look much like a working deterrent. And, as any mom or dad who discovers their child dead in bed can tell you, that's close-up killing too. Sooo, do I favor killing killers rather than being killed by them? Hmm. Yes, I guess I do. 

 


11/10/25 01:42 PM #18617    

 

Jack Mallory

And how do you and I, the people who pay for it with our taxes and endorse it through our democratic participation know those killed are killers, Nori? Just because the president said so? Is that justice? Remember "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice . . . " 

That's why the 5th and 14th Amendments, and Supreme Court decisions like Coffin v. US, make people innocent until proven guilty. Or used to. Should we be more explicit in abandoning that principal? A return to the day when the king could simply order, "Off with his head!"?

If that works at sea, in international waters, could it work at home? Why not just let the president decide, why mess around with trials? We don' need no steenking due process! 
 

Sorry to repeat myself. I asked you these same questions a week or so ago.


11/10/25 06:13 PM #18618    

 

Jack Mallory

We are completely dependent on Trump's judgement of which civilians deserve to be killed by our armed forces on the high seas, since no evidence of their crimes or guilt is being given to us. Perhaps a look at his judgement on other issues of justice, who deserves punishment or pardoning, could inform us of the likelihood that his life or death decisions might have any merit. 

This is NOT up to date. Another pardoned January 6 rioter was just convicted of sexually assaulting a nanny and a three year old (https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/10/nyregion/jonathan-braun-resentencing.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare ). But the CREW investigation certainly suggests that Trump showed poor judgement in many of his other pardons as well. 
 


 

"At least 10 January 6th insurrectionists pardoned by President Trump have already been rearrested, charged or sentenced for other crimes. The crimes include plotting murder of FBI agents, child sexual assault, possession of child sexual abuse material and reckless homicide while driving drunk—underscoring the public safety threats posed by the pardoned insurrectionists. 

"In two cases, the insurrectionists committed the crimes after receiving their pardons. An additional pardoned rioter was killed during a traffic stop when he reportedly resisted arrest and was armed. 

  1. "Andrew Taake: According to the FBI, Taake assaultedCapitol Police officers with pepper spray and a metal whip. He was sentenced to over six years in prison for his role in the insurrection. After Trump’s pardon, he was rearrestedon previous charges of soliciting a minor. 
  2. "Edward Kelley: Kelley was one of the first insurrectionists to breach the Capitol and was found guilty on severalcharges related to January 6th. He was convicted on charges of plotting to murder the FBI agents who investigated him in the January 6th case and is scheduled to be sentenced in July. 
  3. "Emily Hernandez: Hernandez pleaded guilty to entering and remaining in a building and restricted grounds. After Trump’s pardon, she was sentenced to 10 years in prison for causing a drunk driving accident in 2022 that killed one person and injured another. 
  4. "Daniel Ball: According to prosecutors, Ball attacked police officers with an explosive device during the insurrection. He was rearrested days after Trump’s pardon for illegal gun possession given his felony record of domestic violence and strangulation. 
  5. "David Daniel: According to prosecutors, Daniel was part of the attempt to break through a barricaded Senate door and pleaded guilty to resisting police officers. He remains in custody after Trump’s pardon on possession of child sexual abuse material charges brought in 2024. 
  6. "Shane Jason Woods: Woods pleaded guilty to assaulting police and a press photographer. After Trump’s pardon, Woods was convicted in April for multiple counts including reckless homicide and driving under the influence in 2022. 
  7. "Theodore Middendorf: Middendorf pleaded guilty to destruction of government property on January 6th. He was previously sentenced in 2024 to 19 years in prison for sexually assaulting a seven year old and remains in prison.
  8. "Taylor Taranto: Taranto was convicted of several crimes related to January 6th including possession of an unregistered firearm. He was arrested in 2023 for illegal gun possession and making a threat to blow up the National Institute of Standards and Technology and was convicted this May. 
  9. "Brent John Holdridge: Holdridge pleaded guilty to parading, demonstrating or picketing in a Capitol building on January 6th. He was arrested in May for stealing tens of thousands of dollars worth of industrial copper wire and faces charges of burglary, grand theft and possession of stolen property.
  10. "Zachary Alam: Alam was sentenced to eight years in prison for his role in the insurrection. After Trump’s pardon, Alam was rearrested in May for an alleged home invasion and theft. "

https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-investigations/at-least-10-pardoned-insurrectionists-face-other-criminal-charges/
 

 Nori has frequently expressed her concerns for those killed by their drug use, and for their families. I must have missed her posts commiserating with the relatives of those harmed by Trump's pardon recipients. 


One can only hope that Trump's judgements on who deserves to die has been better than his judgements on who deserves to be pardoned. 


11/10/25 07:17 PM #18619    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jack, thanks for your very good post with lots of factual information.

Nori, I don't like all the deportations that Obama orchestrated. That doesn't take away what Trump is doing and the level of cruelty. Also Nori, you completely ignored my asking you what you think of Trump telling the states to not give out SNAP benefits...How can you sugar coat that and not face up to the fact that your guy Trump is cruel and cares nothing for people who will go hungry including 16 million children. Happy Birthday Nori. Love, Joanie


11/10/25 07:33 PM #18620    

 

Jack Mallory

The Supreme Court ruling in Coffin v. United States that I referred to earlier:

"The presumption of innocence in favor of the accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal law." Coffin v. United States, 156 US 432 (1895).

Pretty clear. Or undoubted, axiomatic, elementary, and foundational. 


11/11/25 07:46 AM #18621    

 

Jack Mallory

". . . how do you and I, the people who pay for it with our taxes and endorse it through our democratic participation know those killed are killers, Nori? Just because the president said so? Is that justice?"

The question still stands. How do we know that those we are paying to kill, are being blown up in our names, are killers as you and Trump claim?


11/11/25 08:44 AM #18622    

 

Robert Hall

I hope all of us can take at least a part our busy day, this Veterans Day, to remember those who have served and who are serving right now--and to pray that they are being led by experienced, moral and dedicated superiors who remember their oaths to protect our Constitution and abide by their Code of Conduct, especially Article VI, and international conventions.

11/11/25 09:22 AM #18623    

 

Jack Mallory

Thank you, Robert. I hope the same, and expect we all do. Best to all our fellow veterans, Forum participants and others. 

 But clarify--Article XI? Thought there were only 6 articles in the Code of Conduct? 


11/11/25 11:37 AM #18624    

 

Robert Hall

I corrected the typo Jack. Thanks for spotting it.

11/11/25 12:04 PM #18625    

 

Jay Shackford

Editor’s Note:  Get real, Nori.  It’s 1,729 nautical miles from Venezuela to the shores of South Florida.  In small, speed boats such a trip would require five or more refueling stops — not something drug smugglers would like to do.  

Moreover, most of the fentanyl entering the U.S. comes through Mexico at official ports of entry in cars and trucks and is smuggled in by U.S. citizens, according to DEA as Joan previously noted.  

Finally, even if these boats are carrying small amounts of cocaine or other drugs, the three or four men operating the boats are small time operators who can be easily replaced. Normally, DEA and other drug enforcement agencies would stop and search the boats and try to get the smugglers to talk — providing names and evidence so they could move up the chain of the gang or drug-smuggling operation. Blowing the boats out of the water might look good for the MAGA crowd on TV but it isn’t drug enforcement — it’s murder.)   

PolitiFact Fact-Check on Trump’s Claims for Saving 25,000 Lives for Each Boat Strike

President Donald Trump said U.S. military strikes on five Venezuelan boats have saved more than 100,000 lives because the maneuvers thwarted drug smuggling.

“Every boat that we knock out we save 25,000 American lives so every time you see a boat and you feel badly you say, ‘Wow, that’s rough;’ It is rough, but if you lose three people and save 25,000 people,” Trump said in an Oct. 15 press conference, according to Politifact.

The administration did not supply PolitiFact with evidence that the boats were carrying drugs. Drug experts told PolitiFact that Venezuela plays a minor role in trafficking drugs that reach the U.S. The legality of the strikes also is unclear. After the first attack, some legal experts told PolitiFact that the military action was illegal under maritime law or human rights conventions and the attack contradicted longstanding U.S. military practices.

Trump has used the figure repeatedly and also says he would consider similar strikes on land.

“Every one of those boats is responsible for the death of 25,000 American people, and the destruction of families,” Trump said in an Oct. 5 speech to U.S. Navy sailors. “So when you think of it that way, what we’re doing is actually an act of kindness.”

“We’ve taken a very hard stand on drugs …  the water drugs — the drugs that come in through water they’re not coming — there are no boats anymore, frankly there are no fishing boats, there’s no boats out there period,” Trump told Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney on Oct. 7. “We’ve probably saved at least 100,000 lives, American lives, Canadian lives, by taking out those boats.”

Several aspects of Trump’s statement make it wrong.

There is no way of knowing how many lives are saved as a result of drug interception efforts, drug experts have told PolitiFact.

Additionally, if Trump’s statement were accurate, the strikes on five boats in less than two months would have saved nearly double the number of U.S. lives lost to drug overdoses in an entire year.

The Trump administration hasn’t specified what type of drug or what quantity was on the boats that were struck. So it’s impossible to calculate how many deadly doses could have been destroyed.

Trump said the boats were carrying fentanyl during the Oct. 15 press conference.

“And you can see it, the boats get hit, and you see that fentanyl all over the ocean,” Trump said. “It’s like floating in bags. It’s all over the place.”

He has shared aerial videos of some of the boat strikes on Truth Social, and no bags of drugs are visible in the videos.

Additionally, most illicit fentanyl in the U.S. comes from Mexico, not Venezuela. It enters the U.S. mainly through the southern border at official ports of entry, and it’s smuggled in mostly by U.S. citizens, according to the U.S. Sentencing Commission.

If the boats each carried 25,000 lethal doses, that doesn’t mean the strikes stopped 125,000 people from dying of a drug overdose.

“When drugs are seized, the supply chain partially replaces those lost drugs,” Jonathan Caulkins, a Carnegie Mellon University drug policy researcher, previously told PolitiFact.

Overdose drug deaths have been declining for the past couple of years, before there were any strikes on boats off the coast of Venezuela, according to provisional data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The CDC reported more than 73,000 drug overdose deaths from May 2024 to April 2025. For Trump’s statement to be accurate, the drugs on five boats would have been responsible for 125,000 deaths, nearly double the number of overdose deaths in one year.

Trump isn’t the first person to equate drug enforcement with saving lives. Over the years, we’ve fact-checked other politicians when they said that a quantity of drugs seized at the U.S. border was enough to kill a specific number of people, or that those seizures saved a specific number of lives.

Generally, the politicians we have fact-checked referred to fentanyl seizures. The synthetic opioid is the leading cause of U.S. overdose deaths. Politicians’ statements about lives saved rely on the lethal dose for fentanyl — 2 milligrams. So if authorities seized 10 milligrams of fentanyl, for example, that saved five lives, politicians say.

But there are caveats to that calculation because a dose’s lethality can vary based on a person’s height, weight and tolerance from past exposure, drug experts say. And statistics about how many drugs were stopped from entering the U.S. don’t account for how many drugs make it into the country.

“We don’t have any method I’m aware of for translating drug seizure data into any measure of overdose deaths averted,” Alene Kennedy-Hendricks, a Johns Hopkins University health policy expert, told PolitiFact in May.

Regarding boat strikes off the coast of Venezuela, Trump said, “Every boat that we knock out we save 25,000 American lives.”

Trump said the five boats the U.S. military has struck off the coast of Venezuela were carrying drugs heading to the U.S. However, experts on drugs and Venezuela told PolitiFact the country plays a minor role in trafficking drugs that reach the U.S.

The administration has provided no evidence about the type or quantity of drugs it says were on the boats. This lack of information makes it impossible to know how many lethal doses of the drugs could have been destroyed.

Even if the boats were carrying 25,000 lethal drug doses each, that doesn’t mean that destroying them saved 125,000 lives. There were 73,000 U.S. drug overdose deaths from May 2024 to April 2025. That means the drugs on five boats would have been responsible for 125,000 deaths, nearly double the number of U.S. overdose deaths in one year.

The amount of drugs that are stopped from entering the U.S. doesn’t indicate how many lives were saved.

We rate Trump’s statement Pants on Fire! 


11/11/25 01:13 PM #18626    

 

Jack Mallory

Thank you, Robert--I was afraid it was my memory losing another few megabytes! And thank you, Jay, for another contribution of reality with that Politico article. Unfortunately reality, facts, aren't really relevant to our killing of people in boats. 

Irrelevant because Trump is employing the king-like powers available to the Commander in Chief. His commands need no evidence justifying them, as long as the military is willing to obey the royal edicts. And also irrelevant because some of our fellow citizens are willing to mindlessly approve those commands, even though offered no evidence. As has so often been the case throughout our history, the distant, invisible deaths of human beings can occur without discomfort on the part of many Americans. Not just without discomfort, but with the avid encouragement of such killing. 

Some of us know that even experienced close up, seeing through the filters of "America First," "My country right or wrong," "Kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out" makes actions possible, even likely, that we might some day deeply regret. I will testify to that. And I fear that those carrying out orders to kill strangers on small boats may someday have to recover from the moral injuries their "service" has exposed them to. 

Which brings us back to that Code of Conduct. 

Articles of Code of Conduct

The Code of Conduct provides guidance for the behavior and actions of members of the Armed Forces of the United States. This guidance applies not only on the battlefield, but also in the event that the service member is captured and becomes a prisoner of war (POW). The Code is delineated in six articles.

Article I:

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.[5]

Article II:

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.[5]

Article III:

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.[5]

Article IV:

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.[5]

Article V:

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.[5]

Article VI:

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.[5]

This is intended to guide the conduct of the military in the various arenas in which they might find themselves: particularly in battle and as prisoners of war. Articles I-V address these circumstances in relatively specific language. But the Code is also meant to provide a more global framework for behavior as soldiers, sailors, marines, or air force in Article VI.

Unfortunately, although perhaps necessarily, Article VI is much more vague in its guidance. It is less specific in what it demands of our military at war: what does it mean to be "dedicated to the principles that made my country free"? Which principles, spelled out where? 

Does this instruct our troops to honor due process? Is it a command to believe in innocence until proven guilty? Does it mean that illegal orders must NOT be obeyed? I'm sure I never received any clarification of such issues. Which must have contributed to my willingness to carry out policies that were often questionable at best in a country we were never at war with. It took months of carrying out such policies in country, and months of reflecting on them after I was discharged, for me to be able to actually "see" what we were doing in Vietnam. 

This is why today, Veterans Day, I will probably have to deflect the thank yous for my service with disclaimers that I provided no service to my country until I was involved in the antiwar movement after I was discharged. 

 

But, it's also Deb's and my anniversary!

 

 


11/11/25 02:46 PM #18627    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Thanks Robert, Jay and Jack.  Thinking of the Veterans today.❤️

Nori, the problem is you believe everything Trump says and don't read the links that show convincingly that he is lying.  Now he continues to pardon deniers of the 2020 election. Of course he pardoned all the Jan 6 ers many of which were violent and attacked police officers.  One guy got arrested recently Trump pardoned as it came out he was a sexual assaulter . Another he pardoned threatened to kill Hakeem Jeffries.  So you never look beyond what Trump says. I'm a democrat but that doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to things wrong by a Democrat like when LBJ faked the Gulf of Tonkin crisis.  Love, Joanie  Also Nori, are you ok that Trump keeps trying to cancel snap benefits and so many including children will go hungry.  


11/11/25 03:09 PM #18628    

 

Jack Mallory

Just talking to my buddy, fellow Santa Cruz High teacher, and Vietnam veteran Steve. Both of us expressing the cognitive dissonance that "Happy Veterans Day" creates. 
 

I think this is an apt message for Veterans Day:

 


11/11/25 05:59 PM #18629    

 

Jack Mallory

Too long without a nature break. This glimmer of sunset after several days of cold, wind, and rain. 


11/12/25 07:47 AM #18630    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Beautiful Photo Jack..thank you, Joanie


11/12/25 08:37 AM #18631    

 

Jay Shackford

Jack -- Congrats to you and Deb on your anniversary.  


11/12/25 09:23 AM #18632    

 

Jack Mallory

Nori?

"The question still stands. How do we know that those we are paying to kill, are being blown up in our names, are killers as you and Trump claim?"

*********

Meanwhile, back at the ranch . . . 

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/12/us/politics/trump-epstein-emails.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
 


11/12/25 01:54 PM #18633    

 

Jack Mallory

Thanks, Jay. Living in sin, as we do, we don't have a specific day to mark the beginning. But since we met at the VA, where I came to volunteer in the fall of 2012 and Deb was director of Voluntary Services . . . Well, that is where it all began! Poor woman; 28 years at the VA, mostly as a rec therapist for vets with physical injuries and PTSD, then stuck with one of them! But lucky me.


11/12/25 05:55 PM #18634    

 

Joan Ruggles (Young)

According to Nori, "combatants certainly can be anyone who targets & attacks Americans, including those who bring drugs as weapons in an ongoing war on drugs".  She clearly made my point for me with the help of Jay's excellent article from Politico. A combabtant attacks Americans. You have invented the idea that someone bringing drugs into America is an enemy combatant. So explain to me what drugs are being brought to the US by these "blow-em-up-ask-questions-later boats?" Is it cocaine, fentanyl, other opioids?? If they are in International waters, how do we know that they aren't headed to Trinidad, especially given that they couldn't possibly carry enough fuel to get to the US.  Are you expecting drug traffickers to be hauling giant bales of fentanyl on their boats? Fentanyl use requires tiny doses. Illegal imports are usually in quantities of less than 37 lbs. Is that what was in those huge bales seen off one of the boats? I guess we'll never know will we? 

BTW I am currently in possession of a boatload of those very drugs which we're discussing, which I've been prescribed after surgery on a displaced and broken ankle. I'm using Oxycodone but I've also got some opium based Morphine which was prescribed for me before I left France with my broken bones. Glad to have them when needed. 


11/12/25 07:39 PM #18635    

 

Jack Mallory

I'm sorry. The idea that someone is bringing "drugs as weapons in an ongoing war on drugs" makes absolutely no sense at all. Drugs are the commodity being transported for sale in order to make money. They are not weapons--people truly engaged in a "war," even a metaphorical war, don't sell their weapons. The last thing drug dealers want is a war. They want to quietly sell as much of their drugs as possible, get away with their profits. "WAR" is dangerous, loud, messy, and unprofitable. The only reason to apply the term is to  attempt to justify unevidenced killing. 
 


 


11/13/25 12:53 PM #18636    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

You have a boatload of drugs, Joan? Seriously, sorry you need drugs at all but they are obviously not the illegal drugs we are talking about. Scripts such as yours are controlled substances. 

Having difficulty in understanding the forum's heavy resistance to the US decision to protect us from drug cartels. It's my understanding that several known drug cartels have been designated FTO's by our government. That puts them in a category which falls under our POTUS' right to implement procedures (much like Obama's authorizing 'tween 600 to 1000 deadly drone strikes under his presidency) to protect us. Tren de Aragua, to name one, is known for extortion, human & drug trafficking. It is based in Venezuela, & with growing influence, has garnered attention the world over. I believe our Intelligence community knows well the several terrorist cartels & as intelligence does, filters classified info to Trump. But hey, if the J's choose to think Trump just wants to blow things up, feel free. (Sending a show of military might in the region suggests something on a grander scale, so we'll have to stay tuned). That said, he certainly has a way to go, to catch up with Obama's death toll. Too bad we're stuck with a leader who DOES something rather than pretend the prob isn't there. 

 


11/13/25 05:07 PM #18637    

 

Jack Mallory

Nori, I see no resistance to protecting ourselves from drug cartels. I see, and feel, enormous resistance to killing people because someone says they're drug dealers without offering any evidence, making any arrests, carrying out any trials. Killing without due process is just as illegal and immoral as selling fentanyl, cocaine, heroin, or any other substance. Maybe even more dangerous to our democracy. 

Just as I see enormous resistance on your part to answering the question, asked over and over again, "How do we know that those we are paying to kill, are being blown up in our names, are killers?"


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