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04/28/24 06:40 AM #16960    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jack, These are the groups I am talking about. Love, Joanie

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/who-are-primary-groups-behind-us-anti-israel-rallies


04/28/24 06:41 AM #16961    

 

Jack Mallory

A clear and definitive statement of academic freedoms and responsibilities from the ACLU:

April 26, 2024

Dear College and University Presidents:

We write in response to the recent protests that have spread across our nation’s university and college campuses, and the disturbing arrests that have followed. We understand that as leaders of your campus communities, it can be extraordinarily difficult to navigate the pressures you face from politicians, donors, and faculty and students alike. You also have legal obligations to combat discrimination and a responsibility to maintain order. But as you fashion responses to the activism of your students (and faculty and staff), it is essential that you not sacrifice principles of academic freedom and free speech that are core to the educational mission of your respected institution.

The ACLU helped establish the right to protest as a central pillar of the First Amendment. We have defended those principles for more than a century. The First Amendmentcompels public universities and colleges to respect free speech rights. And while the Constitution does not apply directly to private institutions, academic freedom and free inquiry require that similar principles guide private universities. We approach this moment with appreciation for the challenges you confront. In the spirit of offering constructive solutions for a way forward, we offer five basic guardrails to ensure freedom of speech and academic freedom while protecting against discriminatory harassment and disruptive conduct.

Schools must not single out particular viewpoints for censorship, discipline, or disproportionate punishment

First, university administrators must not single out particular viewpoints — however offensive they may be to some members of the community — for censorship, discipline, or disproportionate punishment. Viewpoint neutrality is essential. Harassment directed at individuals because of their race, ethnicity, or religion is not, of course, permissible. But general calls for a Palestinian state “from the river to the sea,” or defenses of Israel’s assault on Gaza, even if many listeners find these messages deeply offensive, cannot be prohibited or punished by a university that respects free speech principles.

These protections extend to both students and faculty, and to speech that supports either side of the conflict. Outside the classroom, including on social media, students and professors must be free to express even the most controversial political opinions without fear of discipline or censure. Inside the classroom, speech can be and always has been subject to more restrictive rules to ensure civil dialogue and a robust learning environment. But such rules have no place in a public forum like a campus green. Preserving physical safety on campuses is paramount; but “safety” from ideas or views that one finds offensive is anathema to the very enterprise of the university.

Schools must protect students from discriminatory harassment and violence

Second, both public and private universities are bound by civil rights laws that guarantee all students equal access to education, including Title VI of the Civil Rights Act. This means that schools can, and indeed must, protect students from discriminatory harassment on the basis of race or national origin, which has been interpreted to include discrimination on the basis of “shared ancestry or ethnic characteristics,” or “citizenship or residency in a country with a dominant religion or distinct religious identity.”

So, while offensive and even racist speech is constitutionally protected, shouting an epithet at a particular student or pinning an offensive sign to their dorm room door can constitute impermissible harassment, not free speech. Antisemitic or anti-Palestinian speech targeted at individuals because of their ethnicity or national origin constitutes invidious discrimination, and cannot be tolerated. Physically intimidating students by blocking their movements or pursuing them aggressively is unprotected conduct, not protected speech. It should go without saying that violence is never an acceptable protest tactic.

Speech that is not targeted at an individual or individuals because of their ethnicity or national origin but merely expresses impassioned views about Israel or Palestine is not discrimination and should be protected. The only exception for such untargeted speech is where it is so severe or pervasive that it denies students equal access to an education — an extremely demanding standard that has almost never been met by pure speech. One can criticize Israel’s actions, even in vituperative terms, without being antisemitic. And by the same token, one can support Israel’s actions in Gaza and condemn Hamas without being anti-Muslim. Administrators must resist the tendency to equate criticism with discrimination. Speech condoning violence can be condemned, to be sure. But it cannot be the basis for punishment, without more.

Schools can announce and enforce reasonable content-neutral protest policies but they must leave ample room for students to express themselves

Third, universities can announce and enforce reasonable time, place, or manner restrictions on protest activity to ensure that essential college functions can continue. Such restrictions must be content neutral, meaning that they do not depend on the substance of what is being communicated, but rather where, when, or how it is being communicated. Protests can be limited to certain areas of campus and certain times of the day, for example. These policies must, however, leave ample room for students to speak to and to be heard by other members of the community. And the rules must not only be content neutral on their face; they must also be applied in a content-neutral manner. If a university has routinely tolerated violations of its rules, and suddenly enforces them harshly in a specific context, singling out particular views for punishment, the fact that the policy is formally neutral on its face does not make viewpoint-based enforcement permissible.

Schools must recognize that armed police on campus can endanger students and are a measure of last resort

Fourth, when enforcement of content-neutral rules may be warranted, college administrators should involve police only as a last resort, after all other efforts have been exhausted. Inviting armed police into a campus protest environment, even a volatile one, can create unacceptable risks for all students and staff. University officials must also be cognizant of the history of law enforcement using inappropriate and excessive force on communities of color, including Black, Brown, and immigrant students. Moreover, arresting peaceful protestors is also likely to escalate, not calm, the tensions on campus — as events of the past week have made abundantly clear.

Schools must resist the pressures placed on them by politicians seeking to exploit campus tensions

Finally, campus leaders must resist the pressures placed on them by politicians seeking to exploit campus tensions to advance their own notoriety or partisan agendas. Recent congressional hearings have featured disgraceful attacks by members of Congress on academic freedom and freedom of speech. Universities must stand up to such intimidation, and defend the principles of academic freedom so essential to their integrity and mission.

The Supreme Court has forcefully rejected the premise that, “because of the acknowledged need for order, First Amendment protections should apply with less force on college campuses than in the community at large.”

“Quite to the contrary,” the court stated, “the vigilant protection of constitutional freedoms is nowhere more vital than in the community of American schools.” In keeping with these values, we urge you to resist the temptation to silence students or faculty members because powerful voices deem their views offensive. Instead, we urge you to defend the university’s core mission of encouraging debate, fostering dissent, and preparing the future leaders of our pluralistic society to tolerate even profound differences of opinion.

https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/open-letter-to-college-and-university-presidents-on-student-protests


04/28/24 07:19 AM #16962    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jack, Wow, Christie Noam is one cruel heartless woman. It hurts to read what she did to the two animals. Not surprised she would be a serious contender to be Trump's VP choice. Love, Joanie


04/28/24 11:57 AM #16963    

 

Jack Mallory

Thanks for your link to the ADL post, Joanie. Wish everyone on the Forum was as forthcoming with info when asked. 


04/28/24 04:49 PM #16964    

 

Jack Mallory

Sorry, Glen, all I got from your last post is

"Inline Image Not Displayed" above your "best guess is telling me . . . " etc.

Don't know if it's a problem with the post or my display. 

 


04/29/24 11:59 AM #16965    

 

Glen Hirose

Jack,

"For God's sakes Spock, just make your best guess"

Image result for dr. mccoy and spock arguing

 

And that is my "Best Guess" telling me Iran, Russia, China, North Korea, and HAMAS are intent on destroying the 75 year old Israeli US Partnership. Kirk was audacious much more than calculating...

 

 

 


04/29/24 01:21 PM #16966    

 

Jack Mallory

That worked, Glen! NOW I understand. Best guesses are sometimes the best we can do. Always keeping in mind that a best guess is still a guess. 

And I don't believe your cast of guessees produced the nationwide protests by students and others. They may be trying to exploit the demonstrations for their own ends, but many Americans recognize brutality in war without having to have it pointed out by foreign agents. Several of us here on the Forum have objected to both American justifications for and conduct in war since we were the age of today's protestors.
 


04/29/24 03:01 PM #16967    

 

Glen Hirose

 

  OK Jack,

  Please help me find the answer.

 

Can you or anyone remember the name of the men's clothing store on Wisconsin Ave. between the Hiser and Peoples Drug store?

     Second upscale movie theater debuts in Bethesda - WTOP News

 

 


04/29/24 05:26 PM #16968    

 

Jack Mallory

Sorry, Glen. As anybody who sees me even infrequently would tell you, I pay next to no attention to where I buy clothes, then and now. What was the socioeconomic equivalent of Lands End in 1960s Bethesda?


04/29/24 06:07 PM #16969    

 

Glen Hirose

 

Hmmm, that's a tough one,

 

but I do recall buying a real navy surplus "Pea Coat" from the Army Navy Surplus store on Wisc. Ave., Bethesda.

 

 


04/29/24 06:20 PM #16970    

 

Jack Mallory

Kelly's Army Navy in Laconia NH. I can still smell the mold on the WWII/Korean War web gear. Like a hands-on museum for a little kid in the 50s. 


05/01/24 05:36 AM #16971    

 

Jack Mallory

Commander would be even more enthusiastic about his dad if he were to spend more of our tax dollars on dog food and less for bombs going to Gaza. 


05/02/24 06:05 AM #16972    

 

Jack Mallory

If we're going to suggest, without evidence, that anyone seeing advantage in the protests against the war in Gaza may be complicit in those protests, perhaps the Republican Party is behind them, along with the Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, etc. 

". . . the parallels between 2024 and 1968 are ominous, especially as protests spread across university campuses like they did back then. The turmoil of ’68 not only helped propel Richard Nixon to victory in November but also marked the long-term transformation of national politics. The images of disorder on campuses and in the streets helped break the New Deal coalition apart and drive conservative and centrist voters away from the Democratic Party; they hastened the realignment of much of the American electorate. Republicans would hold the White House for 16 of the next 20 years. Indeed, the politics of the past six decades have been shaped by the divisions that sharpened that year. In 2024, we are still suffering from the hangover of 1968.

"And a particular risk has emerged from the campus chaos of today: Even as the nation faces the clear and present danger of right-wing illiberalism, the next few months could be dominated by the far less existential threat of left-wing activists cosplaying their version of 1968. Tuesday night’s dramatic police action to clear an administration building at Columbia University that had been seized by anti-Israel activists took place 56 years to the day from one of the most violent clashes between police and protesters on that same campus. In 1968, activists occupied half a dozen university buildings during protests against the university’s affiliation with military research and its plans to build a segregated gym in a predominantly Black neighborhood. That occupation ended violently after New York police officers clashed with protesters and cleared the buildings. Hundreds of students were arrested, dozens injured, and an NYPD officer was left permanently disabled.

"A “fact-finding commission” headed by the future Watergate special prosecutor Archibald Cox found that “the revolt enjoyed both wide and deep support among the students and junior faculty.” But the protests generated a backlash from the American public. The political fallout from 1968—a year that saw riots in cities, assassinations, campus upheavals, and the DNC riots—was immensely consequential. In 1968, both Nixon and Alabama Governor George Wallace (who was running as a third-party candidate) made the disorder in the streets and on campuses the centerpiece of their campaigns. In November, the two men received a combined 56.2 percent of the popular vote—just four years after Lyndon Johnson’s Democratic landslide over Barry Goldwater.

"But many campus activists, who were beginning the decades-long project of romanticizing 1968, felt emboldened. In 1970, after the killing of four anti-war student demonstrators by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State University, protesters across the country tried to shut down universities, including the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee, where my father taught journalism. Despite his opposition to the Vietnam War—and his role supporting McCarthy’s insurgent anti-war candidacy—he was appalled by the tactics of the protesters who occupied the university library, leading to its closure, which my father regarded as “a new version of book burning,” according to his unpublished manuscript. A Jewish World War II veteran, he refused to shut down his classes, and when he ordered occupiers to leave the office of the student newspaper, he wrote, he was denounced as a “fascist pig.”

"Two years later, in 1972, despite the brewing Watergate scandal, Nixon won reelection with 60.7 percent of the popular vote and 520 electoral votes.

"And here we are again. Now, George Packer wrote in The Atlantic, elite colleges are reaping what they have been sowing for decades. This month’s turmoil on campuses like Columbia’s “brings a strong sense of déjà vu: the chants, the teach-ins, the nonnegotiable demands, the self-conscious building of separate communities, the revolutionary costumes, the embrace of oppressed identities by elite students, the tactic of escalating to incite a reaction that mobilizes a critical mass of students.”

"Donald Trump obviously hopes that history will repeat itself, and that the left-wing theatrics of the anti-Israel protests, on college campuses and beyond, will have an outsize effect on the 2024 election. Like Nixon and Wallace before him, Trump (and the congressional GOP) will seize on the protests’ methodology and rhetoric—this time to further polarize an already deeply polarized electorate. The irony, of course, is rich: Even as Trump stands trial for multiple felonies, he is trying to cast himself as the candidate of law and order. Even as he lashes out about the campus protesters, he is pledging pardons for the rioters who attacked the Capitol.

"But Trump would be right to think that every banner calling for “intifada,”every chant of “From the river to the sea,” every random protester who shouts “Death to America,” and every attempt to turn this year’s DNC into a repeat of 1968 brings him closer to a return to the Oval Office." 
https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2024/05/the-1968-hangover/678263/

 


05/02/24 10:58 AM #16973    

 

Glen Hirose

Jack,

I clicked on the site address at the end of your message, and it Alerted me  "My Security had been breached, not to turn off my computer, and to go immediately to a Microsoft site, or my computer would be Locked up and data would be lost."

I did the opposite of course, and that's why I'm writing this message to you.


05/02/24 02:37 PM #16974    

 

Jack Mallory

I don't understand what's happening to you, Glen. I click on it and it goes to The Atlantic Magazine. I've got a subscription, but surprised you get all the drama when you click on it. 


05/02/24 05:58 PM #16975    

 

Glen Hirose

 

I'm not a computer geek, and for an instant it was a bit unnerving. So I did what Dr. McCoy suggested to Spock, freaked-out, hit every key on the board. The Computer Gods took pity on me, and bing-bada-boom here I am. It's best not try their patience a second time.


05/02/24 06:34 PM #16976    

 

Jack Mallory

If you were a true technophile like me, a computer wizard, you'd know how to fix anything. Turn it off. Unplug it. Wait a minute. Plug it back in. Turn it back on. See?

 

Ever feel like someone was looking over your shoulder?


05/02/24 07:35 PM #16977    

 

Glen Hirose

Yikes! 

Fur covered spy drone! We are living in a time of great peril.

 

But set aside your personal security for a moment, and please explain this bit of non-sense to me:

From The Times

                                                                                                        

Pro-Palestinian student activists, who have set up encampments on campuses across the country, say their movement is anti-Zionist but not antisemitic.

 

Katherine Rosman reported from the Columbia University campus.

 

 

05/03/24 06:20 AM #16978    

 

Jack Mallory

Glen--here's a very thorough and I think convincing argument for discriminating between anti-Zionism and antisemitism. It's 5 years old, so avoids much of the fervor of the current conflicts over the terms. Be interested in hearing your thoughts, and anybody else's. 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic

Hope the link doesn't send your computer into conniptions!


05/03/24 10:32 AM #16979    

 

Jay Shackford

The Big Loser of College Protests — Joe Biden

By Dead-Center Shacks

 

From Columbia to UCLA, the big loser of today’s student college protests is President Joe Biden. 

 

 I had visions a few nights ago  of the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago where Mayor Richard Daly was visibly cursing speakers at the podium for condemning Chicago police for beating up  college kids protesting the war in Vietnam.  It became red-meat for Spiro Agnew and his speech writer, Pat Buchanan.  I remember the hand-to-hand combat between construction workers and anti-war protesters.  It helped elect Richard Nixon.  And it is happening again today.

 

As a result of my columns, I hear from kids in their 20s and 30s from time to time.  Here is an email I received after the Columbia uprising from a college-educated 30 something: 

 

“What the hell is happening?  Why are these rich college kids shitting all over our country?  If George Bush were president, the Patriot Act would put them in jail for life.   

 

“Terrorists! They’re here living the good American life, and I’m working my ass off to survive.  You’ve got these rich pricks at Ivy League schools running around, yelling ‘Cease Fire Now.’

 

“I say, ‘Bomb Gaza NOW!’

 

“‘Re-open Guantanamo Bay NOW.’

 

“And you wonder why people like Trump.  Why isn’t President Biden speaking out and telling these fuckers to chill out or leave the country.”

 

Does this represent the majority view of young people?  Probably not.  But the student protests — more than anything else right now — make President Biden look weak, not in charge and out of touch with the harsh realities and life experiences many young Americans are facing.    

 

It’s a problem that needs to be taken seriously, particularly when you look at recent polls showing Biden losing support among young voters in virtually all groups. 

 

Moreover, the protests may actually hurt the causes that students are trying to support: efforts that could lead to an immediate ceasefire, an increase in food, water, medical supplies and other humanitarian aid to prevent mass starvation; release of the hostages; putting pressure on Benjamin Netanyahu to avoid invading Rafah that would lead to the deaths of tens of thousands more Palestinians (mostly kids and women);  starting  talks on an international level to rebuild Gaza that has lost 70% of its housing and the majority of its infrastructure; and creating an international  movement to pursue a long-term  political solution that would wipe out Hamas and create a two state solution, which has been discussed for decades.  Sound impossible?  Yes, but so did the Marshall Plan in rebuilding Europe after World War II.  

 

But let’s get real.  The motivations and backgrounds of the protesters are all over the ball park. According to New York City police, 134 out of 282 arrested at Columbia and City College were not students or professors at the colleges. Moreover, for some of the students, they are just going along for the ride.  It’s new, it’s exciting and it’s the place to be. Besides that, the protests could lead to classes and final exams being cancelled. Not bad. College kids, after all is said and done, are still kids at heart. 

 

In terms of their knowledge of the history of Israel and Gaza, many are quite ignorant.  If you gave 100 student protestors a blank map of the Middle East, I’m guessing that few would be unable to identify the countries lying within the border lines.  And forget about asking them basic questions about the founding of Israel and its ongoing relationships and past wars with its Arab neighbors. When was Israel created and why?  Ask them that and you would get a blank stare.  

 

The protests, in sum, play into the hands of Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu. For Trump, it diverts attention away from his bat-shit crazy behavior and the explosive testimony coming out of his New York City trial where he is accused of making illegal hush money payments to cover up his sexual affairs with a porn star and Playboy playmate — allegations that coming on the heels of the his “grab them by the pussy” Access Hollywood video that would have changed the outcome of the 2016 presidential election. All this was done just days before the 2016 election and hidden in his business books to avoid public exposure and save his election chances — a clear violation of federal election laws. As in Watergate, it’s the cover up that is the real killer.  

 

This post has nothing to do with hate speech and real or threatened violence against Jews on college campuses. Hate speech and racism should be condemned and dealt with severely on college campuses or wherever it exists.  But let’s avoid having another Kent State where the Ohio National Guard (19-20 year olds with no training or clear instructions) fired on a couple of hundred college protesters who refused to disburse, killing four and wounding another nine students in May of 1970.   

 

 


05/03/24 03:44 PM #16980    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

https://theconversation.com/when-does-anti-zionism-become-antisemitism-a-jewish-historians-perspective-224865

I don't agree Jack with a lot of what Beinart says. He mentions that countries liked the idea of a Jewish state to get rid of the Jews on some level which I agree with. Israel was formed to be a place for Jews to go who had no place to go or who were not wanted. Of course the Palestinians should have land that is their own. The problem is that since Israel was formed, they have been attacked for their existence in 1948, 1967, 1973, 2007 and many times in between. Over the years, the Palestinians were offered by more open minded Israeli administrations to have their own State and they turned it down. Arafat and others wanted the destruction of Israel. So, its not such an academic question of Israel under this awful leader, Netanyahu, not wanting the two state solution...that's true but that doesn't mean that what this Israeli administration advocates negates the whole history of this conflict. The lack of accepting the State of Israel.   Other peoples should be able to live in peace and with the proper people in charge in Gaza, that could happen. Hamas and many others call for the destruction of Israel. When Israel left Gaza, and were called the occupiers, instead of cheering and being happy that the Israeli's left, they were immediately fired upon. Here is the article that more closely follows my views. I think a two state solution with a carefully picked head of it that truly wants to live in peace would be the best idea but sometimes anti-zionism is antisemitism. Also, a peace deal with some of the Arab neighbors with Israel could help bring peace to the region. Children are brought up from the start in Gaza to hate Jews...so its not easy to work though. I like the more moderate people in the Israeli government like Benny Gantz. I think just like here in the US our country looks a lot different with Biden heading it then the fascistic Trump. Love, Joanie


05/03/24 04:12 PM #16981    

 

Jay Shackford

(Editor's note:  The clip below was sent to me by my favorite doctor/medical inventor who lives in Bozeman, Montana.  Enjoy) 
 
Barron's Commencement Address
 
Now that Judge Juan Merchan has ruled that the World’s #1 Dad, Donald Trump, is permitted to skip a day of his criminal trial to attend his youngest son Barron’s high school graduation, I thought it might be a nice idea for a professional writer to prepare some remarks for the former president to deliver to the graduates. Just a few words of life advice from an old man who has seen and done it all. 
 
As the high school band performs a stirring rendition of The Village People’s “YMCA,” President 45 strides onto stage:
 
"To the wonderful students of this very expensive private school whose name I do not know, congratulations. Today is the day all of your hard work pays off as we celebrate your incredible achievement. Not as incredible as being elected President of the United States twice, the way I was, but incredible nonetheless.
Your incredible administrators came to me with tears in their eyes to ask if I would deliver a few words of advice as you begin the next chapter of your lives. Perhaps you will attend one of our corrupt universities or join the military to serve this great country of ours, although I have to tell you, some of the dumbest people I ever met in my life were generals. John Kelly, what a disaster. That’s why we need tough generals like the great Mike Flynn who was treated so unfairly by the failing New York Times.
 
My first piece of advice would be to have me as your father. (Hold for laughter and applause.) Barron knows that better than anybody. Stand up, Barron. Look at the size of that kid. Tallest presidential son in history, they tell me. Even Honest Abe didn’t have kids that tall. Taller even than James Comey, who I had to fire like a dog.
You’ve got to be loyal, kids. Loyalty is everything, isn’t that right, darling? (Turn to Melania.) Our beautiful First Lady is here. No other First Lady in our nation’s history has a figure like hers.
Stand up, Melania. Spin around. Look at that figure, just gorgeous. Can you imagine Ted Cruz’s ugly wife doing that? Not a chance. Sit down, darling, and try to put a smile on your face. Thank you darling. Be best.
 to the advice. Find yourself a good lawyer. I mean a killer. Preferably Jewish, but not like Michael Cohen even though I did more for his people than just about anybody in history, except Moses. And some very smart people think I did even more than him.
Here’s a piece of advice nobody else will tell you—no email. You can still do the Tik Tok. I know kids love the Tik Tok even though Sleepy Joe wants to ban it. Terrible.
But the email is no good. Even when you erase an email, they tell me it’s still out there on “The Cloud.” Do you know what that is? I call it “The Cloud.” Everything you ever write on the computer lives up there forever. Well, if you don’t have anything up there, guess what?
We call that “plausible deniability,” folks.
 
As my great friend Roy Cohn once said, “Deny, deny, deny.” You don’t even have to know what you’re denying. You weren’t there, you don’t know about it, it’s somebody else’s fault.
You are the future leaders of this great nation which won’t be a nation much longer if I don’t win the White House.
It’s true. If I don’t win the White House in November, most of you will be dead within six months. My wonderful family will be safe but the rest of you will be on the streets killing each other for half a Chicken McNugget and a thimbleful of gasoline.
We love our Chicken McNuggets, don’t we, folks?  So sad.
 
(Leaving some space here for the former president to ramble incoherently for 90-100 minutes before wrapping up.)
 
In conclusion, great job.
 
I hope all of you go out there and make a tremendous fortune. And when you do, I hope you remember that it was your favorite president who cut your taxes. It was me, your favorite president, who saved this nation from pronouns. It was me, your favorite president, who created the greatest vaccine this nation ever produced in the shortest amount of time ever which I am hoping none of you took because it’s poison.
Thank you very much and God bless America.”
 
At this point, 45 picks up the stack of diplomas and throws them into the audience the way he did with paper towels to the victims of the hurricane in Puerto Rico.
 
 

 
 
 

 

 
 

 


05/03/24 04:18 PM #16982    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

https://lawandsocietymagazine.com/how-palestine-rejected-offer-to-have-its-own-state-5-times-in-the-past/

Here are five major examples of the Palestinians rejecting offers to have their own State...Love, Joanie


05/03/24 06:04 PM #16983    

 

Jack Mallory

Interesting, Joanie. A barely one page article on Arab rejection of various offers. No, zero, description of their reasons; do you suppose they had no reasons? Is this the most informative article the internet offers?

But a great article in the same magazine, much longer and more detailed (especially the photos--check 'em out!), on botched butt lifts!


https://lawandsocietymagazine.com/botched-butt-lift-woman-calls-for-ban-on-liquid-bbls-after-bungled-procedure-left-leaking-black-holes-in-her-buttocks-photos/

Law and Society Magazine is a Nigerian publication that doesn't seem to deal much with middle eastern affairs. If they spent as much space on the Palestinian issue as they do on butt lifts, they might be more credible. 


Not as graphic, but perhaps more relevant and MUCH longer and more detailed, here's the Wikipedia description of the history of the Palestinian question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_State_of_Palestine

 


05/03/24 07:01 PM #16984    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/

Jack, I think this link is much better to go into what I was talking about and that is that many times over the years, the Palestinian leadership has not really wanted a two state solution...this link comes from the Begin Sadat Center. You can see that the feeling that Israel has a long history of denying the Palestinians a State doesn't ring true. Of course, ths present leader isn't interested like some past Israeli leaders have been, but you can see that the view that Israel's history is one of denying Palestinians a State doesn't measure up when you read this article of what has been really happening. Love, Joanie


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