Penelope Drew (Ware)

So agree with you Susan!!!

Charles Fobes

This just in: 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/virginia-judge-blocks-gov-ralph-northams-order-to-take-down-robert-e-lee-statue-in-richmond-for-10-days/ar-BB15dXIt?OCID=ansmsnnews11

Maybe Robert E Lee statue in Richmond won't have to go?

But Pentagon is talking about renaming bases with Confederate generals' names, such as Fort Bragg.

What a waste of resources for everyone! Seems like our taxpayers' money could certainly be used better!

Helen Farah

Very well said Susan! 
 

Susan Victoria Fritts (Burnett)

On Charles Fobes' comment and attached article.  Memphis had a similar problem with a Nathan Bedford Forrest statue under which he and his wife are buried which WAS located in a public park near the UT Medical School.  The City got around the law a little stealthily by selling (for some minimal amount) the land (park) on which the statue was located to a non-profit (formed for the purpose of removing the statue).  The non-profit was under no similar obligation to not remove the statue, and it was taken down unannounced in the middle of the night.  Where the statue was held (and still is to my knowledge) is a carefully guarded secret.  Of course there were lawsuits, and appeals and counter-lawsuits to "return" the statue, but the courts upheld what Memphis did.  Unfortunately, the TN very conservative State Legislature did NOT like what happened and passed a law against this type of action in the future.  The staute is gone, and the litigants have finally given up the ghost on keeping the Forrests buried in that location (which under the terms of the sale, the land is still open to the public), and they will be moved to a "real" cemetery.  I never knew it when I was growing up, but the Forrests lived in Memphis and he ran a very successful slave trade here.  Memphis is also about 50% black, so it's not surprising his statute in a public park was offensive.  It will be interesting to see how Lee's statute in Virginia ends up, but did you all see how much painted grafetti had been spray painted on the base?  Not sure it's really any longer a "monument" given how the base looks!

Also, thanks to all of you who commented on my earlier comment.  I take all the "at a girls" I can get these days!

Hayes Howard

I recommend the following video for a Christian respond to events http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001kt98a2ugLPZRHrO63MPiOhO4LpK6dQufNM-xJGRgEM7BIYF6dF3u1H-7GOlanyRVMxw-3ndR5u1GjaytzaJBm2sHCVlUZOzO9Y8X-DMWJk7yXhj_xTovm_vGITh3Bc-JpTYh2Vw_PI0wy4Xa4KTn_g==&c=hXOwTsZBMDUVdyUcZcpjECCNhAHK5mq7wuhr1PNeVhkBl4TOtJ4mnQ==&ch=pOszEeMEuZIkSONlzjcMfzBcZUbvb6g8qbYQUWDFrA8f-hIfvGZdoA==

Susan Victoria Fritts (Burnett)

Hayes Howard:  Just listened to your video.  I'm guessing you're supporting earlier comments, but I don't believe you have to be a Christian to embrace the points being made.  I lost my religion long ago over the fact that I got tired of listening to/seeing so many people I've known claim to be and preach their religion, only to not practice or fail to see they don't practice it.  

Michael Ferrara

I've been reading about about groups and polititicans  changing the names of Forrest  and now it seems they are wanting to rename Lee becuase some are finding the name Rober E Lee offensive ... What I don't get,  if these high school names are so horrible and racist, why aren't people going after the City's name  itself?.. Andrew Jackson was a slaveowner and a notorious slaughterer  of Native Americans..   They (whoever they are) are renaming  anything related to the civil war  and slavery,   taking down all the monuments related to both  too.. Who here believes Jacksonville should be renamed too.? Rename it  back to  Cowford..There was no bigger example of racist than Andrew Jackson..  I'm sorry , I dont get it .. If you are going to erase hsitory, the name Jacksonville should be at the top of the list..

Hayes Howard

While the message is from a Christian leader and framed in terms of corporate responsibility as found in the bible, I think the message about corporate responsibility will resonate with both Christians and non-Christians.

I too lost my faith along the road to adulthood but tankfully had it restored at Revelors in 1997, but that is another story. And no, I was not drinking. -Hayes

Beverly Joyce McCoy (Smith)

I'm going to be honest. I'm always embarrassed to tell people that I went to Robert E Lee High School. In my mind it pigeon holes me as a bigot. Maybe we need to think about the kids who attend Lee now! For them and for me it represents a disgraceful period of our history. Nothing Christian about it! Christians would have gotten rid of that name along time ago. I vote to do the right thing and bury that vile, shameful period of our history. 

Susan Victoria Fritts (Burnett)

I get your response, but history IS history and we should learn from it.  If we "bury" history we lose some of the perspective we should learn from it - not only the Confederacy, think Hitler or public beheadings and hangings.  I think there's a place for history, as long as we don't glorify it.  Are all things about the Confederacy bad, or just the slavery part?  Were all things about Germany under Hitler bad?  I don't know the answer, but there were good people (think Schindler's List) in Germany.  If we lose the Hitler years of history, don't we lose the good lessons from humanity too?  More food for thought.  Like I said, I get your message, I just feel strongly that we shouldn't forget or bury history too much.  It's the term I'm disagreeing with, not the thought.

Tommy Nixon

Great conversation folks. Susan, I'd like to comment on your concerns about burying history. Most of the confederate monuments and statues came about in the later years of the 19th century as a result of many southern groups like the Daughters of the Confederacy and others to effectively change the narrative of the civil war and to prop up Jim Crow laws. The narrative was to alter the slavery aspect to a state's rights theme. R. E. Lee was the essence of southern gentility, bloodlines and nobility. I bought it as a young man. U.S. Grant was a unsophisticated loser and drunkard who bruttilized the south. The reality is neither. These statues and monuments prolong a revisionist history that supports a Jim Crow world that divides our changing country. We will never bury the civil war and its brutal reality nor should we. There are places for these statues but I don't think they should be displayed in public places where they glorify the leadership of a movement that ripped our country apart and still does. I certainly don't have all the answers but I am delighted to hear all of you respectfully discussing this issue and I'm moved by your thoughtful discourse. I believe that there were some remarkable people who graduated from Lee High School in 1969, who could shed some light on our own experience of graduating from a high school named after an individual who provokes many conflicting ideals. My biggest concern is a search for the truth, not the myth, and how we acknowledge our responsibility to the future generations. OK, I got a little carried away. Apologies! As a ranger, I worked with Native American groups in California (primarily Pomo) to deal with many issues including names, plaques, etc. I've formed some lasting experiences with their help, and I can tell you it matters to them. Why shouldn't it matter to other marginalized groups. We need to do some heavy lifting and search out reality in a cluttered world of disinformation. Finally, I always remember and example that's brilliant in its simplicity that should ring true to all of our educators out there in the class of 69. If a child on the playground calls another a disparaging name and the victimized child reports it to the teacher, the teacher most certainly (I hope) would confront the accused by saying to him or her, that little Billy doesn't like being called that name. It's really about dignity. Tom

Vivian Partin (Matlack)

I agree that we do not want to glorify with honor the parts of the past that should not be remembered but with shame.  I read this morning that some are insisting that the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial in Washington, D.C. should come down because those two men had slaves.  There are 11 statues in the hall of statues in the Capitol that were slaveowners.  Those have been requested to be removed.  However, those men, at least Washington and Jefferson played a major role in the founding of our country.  So, how do we honor the contributions of people when those people were not perfect, and, in fact, had some major flaws (as viewed from our perspective now)?  We have that same problem today.  People do some great things but they have flaws or skeletons or whatever.  So, how do we acknowledge the great things without also honoring their errors?  Do we allow their errors to tarnish the positive things they have done?  Taking that to a logical extension, a man discovers the cure for cancer, but has been convicted of domestic abuse, do we ignore the fact that he would have saved the lives of a lot of people?  I don't know the answer to this.    Vivian

David Lamar Chester

Hi classmates. Great discussion. I am both sad and frustrated with what is going on in our country at present. There certainty is racism in the country and in some police forces, but I do not buy into the claim of systemic racism. If it were so, it would be rampant on social media and consistently claimed throughout the black community daily. It simply isn't. Many black leaders and black common folk don't buy into it. The background data doesnt support it either. This seems to me to be yet another part of "hate politics" from the far left that we are seeing played out on TV and internet. There are a lot of different factions that are more interested in control than really helping to heal our land. What a great example of progress to have fully integrated teachers and students at Robert E Lee HS. America has come a long way in race relations. Today's violence, misinformation and attempt to change history undermines the great progress made. 

Michael Ferrara

Anyone else here  feel we can keep this conversation apolitical?  Plenty of that on Facebook .Just hoping this thread can remain focused on the issues.

Charles Fobes

Great discussions everyone!!
So wonderful to share ideas and not get angry or call people ugly names!!

In the original words of American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971):

Father, give us courage to change what must be altered,
serenity to accept what cannot be helped,
and the insight to know the one from the other.

Or as you may now know as the Serenity Prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.  Amen.

Beverly Joyce McCoy (Smith)

I certainly see that many of us have come along way from revering the Confederacy in spite of growing up going to lily white schools that concentrated most of our history lessons around the Jim Crowe crapola. I see Trump is headed to Jacksonville. It will be interesting to watch that outcome. Y'all are likely to see some major protests/riots in the coming months. I will definitely pass on that experience. Like Mamie said, "It ain't fittin It just ain't fittin". I'm in favor of moving Confederate statues and glorifying Confederate Generals Names to Halls of Museums and history books. I think our school name needs to be decided by the kids that currently attend and those who come from diverse backgrounds. If I were black, or tan or purple or green I would feel like a traitor going to a school with such an obvious symbol of whiteness. We've seen plenty of name changes over the years. In with the new out with the old. There is no way that I would ever want to use a typewriter again and I love going to Disney and seeing The Carousel of Progress and Spaceship Earth. That is my history. I wore those funny little headphones as a long distance operator for Southern Bell. As a veteran I'm appalled that the Veterans Hall is hosting the Trump Convention with little regard for protecting against Covid 19. Certainly if you watch the video on Corporate Evil that our classmate posted you will recognize the display of power. Nite folks. 

Michael Thomas Hutson

Beverly McCoy and Tommy Nixon hit points I would have made so I'll let those stand for me but I do know that when I was working on a story recently, I used Lee High School and not the full name because I don't want that Robert E. to distract from the story I am telling. The Civil War WAS about slavery and, in this case, the losers did rewrite the history, at least through most of the 20th century. 
 

The authors of our Constitution had no idea what they were really starting when they wrote it. Today's America is much more diverse and we really need to heed that line in the Pledge that says "with liberty and justice for ALL."  The Civil War was not a just cause and it is time we let the offensive reminders of it be relegated to museums and not in the face of those that it offends. 
 

I am not the same person I was. Influenced by the '50s and'60s, the subsequent years have brought greater knowledge of the real truth of history. My life's journey has made me much more understanding and tolerant of all people. Rodney King, though not a particularly admirable person, did say something profound when he said "Can we all just get along."  I look forward to a return to a kinder, gentler America. 

M Jane Johnson (Johnson)

I will chime in on this being that I have spent the majority of my life in Virginia living in Richmond and now in Fairfax.  The statues are coming down -period.  Northam has already ordered that.  They have been a bone of contention for at least 10 years if not longer.  There are a ton of people on both sides of that issue!

 I have a lot of friends who were born and raised in Richmond who are great people and fair to everyone who don't want the statues to go away because that is part of what is the essence of Richmond.  It was a sleepy southern  city with a boat load of charm, guaintness, and style.  Yes everyone knows the history! You can't live in a Richmond without civil war history in the air you breath.  For many years most of Richmond treasured that history.   Hack every Easter there is a grand parade of Easter finery around the monuments.  But times have changed.  

Having lived my years in Richmond I am really torn.  Removing the statues does leave some of the soul of the city missing but it is also a new age when the calls about racism and suppression are loud and clear.  Can removing the statues make those past times go away, no nor should they be erased from our memory by cancel culture.  Just because you want to get rid of something that offends does not mean things did not happen.  What if people wanted to get rid of Auschwitz?  Would that make the murder of innocent Jews go away?  
 

They have defaced the monuments here in DC too including the Lincoln Memorial.  I just heard there is a calling to get rid of the Washington Monument!  Seriously!  There are statues all over the country where for various reasons people would find them offensive.  Maybe all monuments and statues should be removed.  Maybe they should ban any forms that honor people who are seen as leaders, heroes, etc by various groups in the country or world as maybe in a way that could be idol worshipping.  Just a thought.  

People complain about Columbus too and calls for anything related to him be removed too.  If you have ever been to Seville, Spain and seen the harbor where he started his great adventure that lead to the discovery of  America, you would understand what a heroic effort that was.  The St. John's downtown is bigger.  I could not imagine the size of the ships and how they did what they did.  To the Spanish Columbus is a hero.  If  people want to erase him from our history so be it but to me that was impressive!

We can't go about blindly erasing history as we need to be reminded of things that have been done and learned from them.  I am so against racism or any ism,  I care about the person not what they look like.  After all everyday we have to interact with people no matter who they are or where they come from.  Living in the DC area is a huge mixing bowl!  I hate to see part of what makes a place special go but there has to be some point where we learn, forgive, and get along.  

Tommy Nixon

Jane, and others: again I really am enjoying the conversation with much respect for all opinions. I'd like to add one final comment and then I will sign off this stream and let others continue the discourse. No one wants to 'bury' or 'erase' history. I have a degree in history from U of F and I have spent the majority of my career working at a State Historic Park in Northern California. I read constantly (currently on Churchill). Most Jews I know, but certainly not all, want a place like Aushwitz to be remembered and never forgotten. There are Japanese in California that annually pilgrimage to Manzanar National Historic Site in the Eastern Sierra Nevada to honor their family's fortitude in living in an American Consentration Camp during WWII. The difference is that many African Americans don't want these public displays of historic chains that they still bear. We need to listen to a culture that sometimes doesn't agree with our on experience or prospective. We honor these cultures by listening to them and eliminate the barriers that divide us. There is something to be said about drawing a line somewhere (ie.. Washington Monument), but the Civil War is perhaps the single most brutal event in our history that we have yet to come to terms with. I'm tired of the same old crap. If there is something so small as taking down monuments, statues or names of schools to bring us closer together, I say go for it. History is fascinating! I would never want it buried or erased! Again I apologize for blabbing on. I look forward to hearing from you all. Tom

Beverly Joyce McCoy (Smith)

Interesting 

Susan Victoria Fritts (Burnett)

I, too, am enjoying the conversation about what's happening in today's history.  I have no problem with taking down SOME of the statues, but wonder it we really need to take them ALL down.  Can't there be some electivity to it?  Also, about the comment concerning using Lee H.S. vs. R.E. Lee, as I recall we always used to say we went to "Lee H.S."  

Also, there are a lot of "Underground Railroad" historic sites, one's even in Memphis, which I've been through.  It's very fasinating and I wonder if everyone who wants to get rid of ALL symbols to the old South, would also include sites like the Underground Railroad.  

Good discussion everyone.  Have a good weekend, and stay away from Covid-19!  Susan

David Lamar Chester

Well.........I'm sorry my earlier comments were taken as "political". Unfortunately, I think these issues are very intertwined. I am far from a racist. We had a very good friend and work associate who was black in our wedding in 1974, forty six years ago.  We have had many friends of color during our years in both the north and the south. Never was there any anger expressed over statues, names, or the like during normal life. Race wasn't even a topic. These renaming and removal of monument actions seem to become a major issue only after some horrific event, and certainly the George Floyd murder was horrific. I do not know anyone that wasn't appalled by it and now expecting justice. I do not think, however, the name change agenda is organic by any stretch. It appears to be staged by radical groups to rile up the other side. I would rather see a real honest effort to bring justice for the wrongs that have occurred and put in place systems that will bring about real change going forward, than I would spend time, energy and money chasing things that will likely not fix anything. What has the name change from Forrest to Westside High really solved and where do you draw the line to stop it - politics aside?
David

Susan Victoria Fritts (Burnett)

Out of interest, I Googled "How Jacksonville High Schools were named" and found the following article which is very interesting.  https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/where-did-jacksonvilles-high-schools-get-their-names/ .  After reading it, it doesn't appear that Lee was named as an intimidation to Blacks, but as a respected name that whites admired, after all he was a well known military General who graduated from West Point.  It also appears that similar thought was used when naming the segregated black schools, names that may have been admired in the black population.  This, again, is not to say I don't understand and appreciate today's conflict.  If you read the above article, it states that's why during later school expansions the city decided to move away from naming schools after people, and began to use area names.  Anyway, thought others might enjoy the article.

Hugh Mattox (MAttox)

Johnny Arnold

Hi Everyone, 

I get emails from Forum Posts so have been following along. Tommy Nixon, the response you wrote on the name change is one of the wisest on the topic I have seen anywhere. Gail Gunn and I communicate a lot. Right now, I am messaging with her and hopefully OK with you shared your comments. 

Some topics have come up which I have very personal knowledge of. I doubt that any of you know I am Jewish on my mother's side. Most all my mother's family were killed in concentration camps including Auschwitz. I was barely born in the US. My mother was pregnant with me on the plane over from Europe. 

I am also related to Benedict Arnold, Frank Arnold Mayor of Savannah in the Civil War and Confederate General Miller. I have relatives on the persecuted and persecutor sides. I grew up with people that had numbers tattooed on them. They were not in Jacksonville but in NYC. A cousin of my mother spent 3 years in Auschwitz and lived. 

My dad's family had been in Jacksonville for generations. Up until age 9 I lived in Ortega Forest. My parents got divorced and I lived with my mother and sisters in Hyde Grove from 6th grade on. I was the only person I knew whose parents were divorced. Nothing German, not even a Volkswagen was allowed in our house or driveway. 

History is.. History is not fixed or static especially before video on everyone. We must not forget history especially whether we like it or not. The question at any time is not whether to erase it but how can learn from it. and maybe more importantly how do we use what we learn. 

I just learned of Axe Handle Saturday when it came up recently. Lot to learn here. I grew up in Jacksonville when it happened and never heard of it. I had no idea that KKK were in Jacksonville. In Hyde Grove I literally lived on the dividing line between Lee High and Nathan B Forrest High. My sister went to Lee for Sophomore and Junior year and Forrest for Senior year. 

My question is what have learned since all this and what do we do about it? 

My feeling is we must preserve history whether we consider good or bad. My feeling is it is past the time for the Confederacy to be celebrated. It is time to change the change the school's name. Changing the name will not make us any less fellow classmates. My first thought was not to destroy but to create a museum where all aspects of pre-Civil war, Civil War and post-Civil War statues, documents, records and things related to one of the most significant events of our nation's history will be. There is much to learn today. 

We are still dealing with issues that have been with us for over 400 years. As the saying goes if not us (dealing with it) who? We here and now and due to age have a gift given to us. We have lived our lives on the border neither fully in the Confederacy and not. Let's rise to this moment. The country needs our unique perspective right now. 

The 50th reunion was a very moving event for me. I cherish and value my friends from High School. Since High School I went to Rice U in Houston, 1 year in Denver, 15 years in SF Bay Area (Tommy I didn't know you were in Northern California or you would have seen me at the park). Lived in Orlando 20 years and I have been Chicago 9 years. 

At this time at our age we can matter. We can contribute to the idea of America the 
"All Men and Women, No Matter Their Race, Creed, Gender, Sexual Preference, Are Created Equal"

While we are at it, let's save life on the planet. Personally, I would not like to find that the only animals left are us and roaches..

Best, 

Johnny ( Speaking of name changes. I am Johnny to my family and friends. I changed to John after college as I thought Johnny was a kid's name. Now I prefer Johnny)