header 1
header 2
header 3

Message Forum - GENERAL

Welcome to the Bethesda Chevy Chase High School Message Forum.

The message forum is an ongoing dialogue between classmates. There are no items, topics, subtopics, etc.

Forums work when people participate - so don't be bashful! Click the "Post Message" button to add your entry to the forum.


 
go to bottom 
  Post Message
  
    Prior Page
 Page  
Next Page      

07/02/24 11:35 AM #17186    

 

Jay Shackford

Who cares about F. Scott Fitzerald, when you have Mark Twain?

By David Remnick

The New Yorker/June 28, 2024

 

The Reckoning of Joe Biden

For the President to insist on remining the Democratic candidate would be an act not only of self-delusion but an act of national endangerment.

There is an immense bounty of bunk about the wisdom of age available to all of us who require it from time to time, but, as the pitiless Mark Twain put it in his autobiography, “It is sad to go to pieces like this, but we all have to do it.”

On Thursday night, it was Joe Biden’s turn. But, unlike the rest of us, he went to pieces on CNN, in front of tens of millions of his compatriots. At some level, Biden’s supporters were hoping that he would defy the realities of time, the better to puncture the vanities and malevolence of his felonious opponent. And so there was a distinct cruelty to it all, the spectacle of a man of eighty-one, struggling terribly with memory, syntax, nerves, and fragility, his visage slack with the dawning sense that his mind was letting him down and that, as a result, he was letting the country down. It must be said, with fellow-feeling, but it must be said: This was an event that, if unremedied, could bring the country closer to another Trump Presidency and with it a diminishment of liberal democracy.

The question is: What will Joe Biden do about it?

We have long known that Biden, no matter what issue you might take with one policy or another, is no longer a fluid or effective communicator of those policies. Asked about his decline, the Biden communications team and his understandably protective surrogates and advisers would deliver responses to journalists that sounded an awful lot like what we all, sooner or later, tell acquaintances when asked about aging parents: they have good days and bad days. Accurate, perhaps, but discreet and stinting in the details. In Biden’s case, there certainly were times where he could pull off a decent interview or an even better State of the Union. If he worked a shorter day, well, that was forgivable; if he stumbled up the stairs or shuffled from the limo to the plane, a little neuropathy in the feet was nothing compared to F.D.R. in a wheelchair. The prospect of Donald Trump’s return permitted, or demanded, a measure of cognitive dissonance. And wasn’t Trump’s own rhetorical insanity even worse? To say nothing of thirty-four felony convictions, a set of dangerous policy goals, and an undeniably authoritarian personality?

 

 

But watching Thursday’s debate, observing Biden wander into senselessness onstage, was an agonizing experience, and it is bound to obliterate forever all those vague and qualified descriptions from White House insiders about good days and bad days. You watched it, and, on the most basic human level, you could only feel pity for the man and, more, fear for the country.

In the aftermath, Jill Biden, who had led her husband off the stage, dismissed the night as an aberration, as did Barack Obama, and a cluster of loyalists. He’d had a “bad debate.” He was sure to get better, grow more agile. Such loyalty can be excused, at least momentarily. They did what they felt they had to do to fend off an immediate implosion of Biden’s campaign, a potentially irreversible cratering of his poll numbers, an evaporation of his fund-raising, and the looming threat of Trump Redux.

 

But meanwhile the tide is roaring at Biden’s feet. He is increasingly unsteady. It is not just the political class or the commentariat who were unnerved by the debate. Most people with eyes to see were unnerved. At this point, for the Bidens to insist on defying biology, to think that a decent performance at one rally or speech can offset the indelible images of Thursday night, is folly.

Biden has rightly asserted that the voters regard this election not only as a debate about global affairs, the environment, civil rights, women’s rights, and other matters of policy but as a referendum on democracy itself. For him to remain the Democratic candidate, the central actor in that referendum, would be an act not only of self-delusion but of national endangerment. It is entirely possible that the debate will not much change the polls; it is entirely possible that Biden could have a much stronger debate in September; it is not impossible to imagine that Trump will find a way to lose. But, at this point, should Biden engage the country in that level of jeopardy? To step aside and unleash the admittedly complicated process of locating and nominating a more robust and promising ticket seems the more rational course and would be an act of patriotism. To refuse to do so, to go on contending that his good days are more plentiful than the bad, to ignore the inevitability of time and aging, doesn’t merely risk his legacy—it risks the election and, most important, puts in peril the very issues and principles that Biden has framed as central to his Presidency and essential to the future.

Trump went into the debate with one distinct advantage. No matter how cynical and deceitful he might be, no one expected anything else. His qualities are well known. In contrast, Biden’s voters and potential voters might disagree with him on particular issues—on immigration, on the Middle East, you name it—but they are, at minimum, adamant that he not be a figure of concealment or cynicism. To stay in the race would be pure vanity, uncharacteristic of someone whom most have come to view as decent and devoted to public service. To stay in the race, at this post-debate point, would also suggest that it is impossible to imagine a more vital ticket. In fact, Gretchen Whitmer, Raphael Warnock, Josh Shapiro, and Wes Moore are just a few of the office-holders in the Party who could energize Democrats and independents, inspire more younger voters, and beat Trump.

So much—perhaps too much—now depends on one man, his family, and his very small inner circle coming to a painful and selfless conclusion. And yet Joe Biden always wanted to be thought of as human, vulnerable, someone like you and me. All of us are like him in at least one way. It is sad to go to pieces like this, but we all have to do it. There is no shame in growing old. There is honor in recognizing the hard demands of the moment. 

 

 

 


07/02/24 11:57 AM #17187    

 

Jack Mallory

Whether we learn from them or not, the lessons of history can provide hope. 
 

*********

Jay, I suppose Fitzgerald would suggest that a first-rate mind should have no trouble appreciating both him and Twain!


07/02/24 01:09 PM #17188    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Hmm. Well there's always that impeachment thing that the Founders gave the specific right to Congress (and not the Judicial Branch) to pursue.  Maybe a third impeachment would be the charm.  Dig, people! Am sure there's more to get the bastard on!

Joanie, competency is subjective.  Guess all we have to go by, was whether Trump had competency the last time he was president.  He certainly was accused of a lot ot things, but I don't think it uncluded age related dementia. (I betcha if you asked any of the Gold Star families whose lives were turned upside down in our Afghanistan pullout whether Biden is competent, they'd be happy to answer.)

Gotta love Bill Maher's quip: last week Biden was the only one who could beat Trump. Today anybody BUT Biden can apparently beat Trump.

I'm sure there are many sharper, more vital, less confused people who fit the profile, Joan.  Unfortunately, most people don't vote in primary elections.

 


07/02/24 01:50 PM #17189    

 

Jack Mallory

So, Nori, what does your close relationship with Gold Star families tell you about their reactions to the 45 American combat casualties and 18 other service members' deaths in Afghanistan during Trump's four years as Commander in Chief? Were those families' lives somehow less upended than the families of those killed during the pullout? Huh. 

https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-trump-afghanistan-troops-killed-659053265479

The incompetent clusterfuck sometimes called the Global War on Terror was/is the responsibility of multiple administrations of both parties. 


07/02/24 02:00 PM #17190    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Thanks Nori, Since you are focusing only on Biden and the American people have a choice to make I wondered your view on Trump. As for Gold Star families and Biden, he still is the one with a big heart for those families who have lost people in wars. Trump when overseas wouldn't visit the graves of fallen American soldiers saying they are suckers and losers. John Kelly and several others have backed up they heard him say that. We all heard him say he didn't like John McCain as he didn't like soldiers that were captured. In my opinion if you want the climate decimated( Trump said in return for big donations from oil companies, he would get rid of restictions on the polluters.) What about our grandkids??? Or if you want someone who says he is about retribution during his term and someone who says that immigrants poison the blood of America(right out of Hitler talk) you would vote for him. You have every right to disagree and to consider him a person who cares about America. I think he cares only about himself. Biden, however, is driven to make the world a better place. Love, Joanie

07/02/24 02:26 PM #17191    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Completely agree, Jack. Indeed, the rendering of competency is subjective.  

Joanie, I realize how disappointed you are in having to wrap your brain about these latest Biden developments. You have admiration for the man, his character, his record. Thursday night had to be unnerving for you.  Followers like you are why I hope he sets aside his self-assured hubris and bows out gracefully. I think if another person from your party can come in and represent your feelings about the policies you care about, you'll realize too that his stepping down will be for the best.  Some say he just had a bad night, that he was sharp the next day. But, we know none of us get over 'a cold' like that and he read from a teleprompter during his address on Friday and twice since.  It's sad. But it's reality - the kind that hurts.  Also, if you read yesterday's SCOTUS ruling, I think you could see how it made sense. Lower courts will decide penalties for presidents whose bahaviors do not fall under official duties.  It may not be what you wanted for Trump but it will keep our future presidents protected when they should be.  No, I did not read it myself but I did hear a variety of legal eagles explain it in those terms.

Just saw the press conference today and my only question directed to the press secretary would have been 'why can't the president undergo and reveal the results of a cognitive test administered by a medical practitioner?" Then, though it is obvious there is physical incapacity, we would have at least a viable idea of the progression of his mental capacity. I never heard that question come up. 

 

 


07/02/24 02:29 PM #17192    

 

Stephen Hatchett

And another quote I wish I could help thinking of:

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

H. L. Mencken


07/02/24 02:53 PM #17193    

 

Jack Mallory

Dodging my question about Gold Star family reactions to their losses under Trump and Biden administrations, Nori? Why just focus on families during Biden's presidency? Not trying to use Gold Star families for political purposes, are you? Are you?


07/02/24 02:58 PM #17194    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-immunity-trump-president-jan-6-2350bee785c85282a97af9485b94b982

 

Nori, Alan Lichtman, a distinguished professor of history, has correctly guessed the outcome or 10 out of 11 Presidential elections including the one in 2016 where just about everyone felt that Hillary would win.He said Trump would win. I just heard him and he said that we would lose if we dumped Biden. He said all the factors for a win would be weakened with starting with another candidate. So, I don't think you understand that I think Biden still has the best chance to win. I still have faith in his ability to lead the country and if he is having trouble health wise, he has a good team along with him. So, I don't want him to step down so that we would be at greater risk to lose to Trump. Now, do you want Trump to do the right thing and step down because he has 34 felony accounts against him and has been charged with sexual assault in a civil case. I know you want to stick with him but have you given any thought to someone else that doesn't have a felony record running for President in the Republican party?   As for the Supreme Court's ruling,  it is beyond horrible as they decimated the rule of law by giving the President broad powers that even included limiting prosecutors looking at a case against a President to discuss motive. Motives that are part of building a case against someone are off the table.. Nixon would for sure have been able to stay on with this type of King ruling. Remember he said, if the President does it, then its ok?...so now the Court has in effect agreed with Richard Nixon. Its a sad day in America that the court got rid of Roe v. Wade.So many women have suffered not able to get the care they need.  Obviously they lied at their hearings when they said precedent mattered . They got rid of affirmative action and they side with the polluters in the Chevron case and now this awful Presidential broad level of immunity covering official acts...So please, just as I told you why I am sticking by Biden...because I think he can still continue the job he started and has a good team to back him up, and has the best chance to win...why are you still sticking by Trump, a convicted 34 count felon? Also 60 courts, many with Republican judges said there was no there there, so you also are supporting someone who falsely claimed the election was stolen...why is he still your guy and you don't urge him to step down. Love, Joanie


07/02/24 04:16 PM #17195    

 

Nora Skinker (Morton)

Joanie, a simple cognitive test of Biden would silent voices. What a shame that that doesn't seem to be in the cards for voters like you to know who they're actually voting for.  As for Nixon, I was under the impression that the Watergate cover-up and public outcry made it necessary for him to resign. Deals were made (most likely) ending with Nixon's resignation and Ford's pardon.  (As i type this, there may be deals being made behind closed doors after Thursday's debate, too.) It was long ago, but I seem to recall that Nixon knew nothing of the break-in, itself. Feel free to correct me on that. You are probably right that yesterday's ruling would have kept Nixon in office, but it was the public who turned so deeply against him that sealed his departure. If Biden is to resign, it will be the public outcry that pushes him out. JMO. I could not push Trump out even if I wanted to.  So far there is no eliminating a nominee due to felonious crimes but the 25th Amendment seems to indicate that mental health is a cause for elimination. With that in mind, there is a very good reason why Biden is avoiding a cognitive evaluation.

Jack, my intention in mentioning the article you posted regarding Biden's omitting fallen soldiers' names at the debate, was to shine a light to Joanie that a person holding office is viewed as competent or incompetent depending on the lens through which he or she is being viewed.  Where SHE may look upon Biden as a hero, others may not.  Others, such as those who have suffered under Biden's leadership. If that assumption is weaponizing, I fail to see how.. 

 


07/02/24 04:26 PM #17196    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Fair proposal, but how do you feel about a simple cognitive test for Trump? Love, Joanie

07/02/24 05:11 PM #17197    

 

Jack Mallory

But you never brought up your concern for Gold Star families on the Forum, Nori, not even once, during four years of Trump's presidency. Even though they were suffering under his leadership as their family members died. But you do make a big issue of their suffering under Biden's leadership. Certainly easy to mistake for weaponizing. 


07/02/24 05:45 PM #17198    

 

Jack Mallory

I'm not sure a simple cognitive test would begin to thoroughly assess the mind that could produce this, Joanie:

Trump, speaking in July of 2015--nearly 10 years ago  I'm sure he's gotten younger and smarter, just like me. Come on, Nora, if  we're going to call for testing Biden, doesn't this gibberish suggest the need for taking a good look at Trump, too?

“Look, having nuclear—my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart —you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I’m one of the smartest people anywhere in the world—it’s true!—but when you’re a conservative Republican they try—oh, do they do a number—that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune—you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged—but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me—it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are (nuclear is powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what’s going to happen and he was right—who would have thought?), but when you look at what’s going on with the four prisoners—now it used to be three, now it’s four—but when it was three and even now, I would have said it’s all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don’t, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years—but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/donald-trumps-rambling-90-second-speech-stuns-english-speaking-world_uk_57ab37d7e4b08ab70dc0f646


07/02/24 06:19 PM #17199    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-sharks-boats_n_666665d0e4b02fc48bf39e10

NORI, PLEASE VIEW THIS LINK. you can click on it and the top video is not the one to watch. You have to scroll down and you will see another video to click on of Trump talking about his choice of electrocution over sharks. Hmm, he needs a lot more then a cognitive test.. Jack good article about Trump.

I remember you didn't know if this was accurate but I have Trump in his own words saying this. Hmm, as I said,  I'm not sure if a cognitive test would be what Trump needs at this point. I think you and many others should at least consider asking him to step down after viewing this crazy video. Surely you can get someone else less shark forcused to replace him. Love, Joanie.


07/02/24 06:47 PM #17200    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

https://politicalwire.com/2024/07/02/new-poll-finds-biden-and-trump-deadlocked/     Jay, I don't agree with the David Remnick article. I just heard Alan Lichtman who has successfully predicted 10 out of 11 Presidential elections including the one where Trump beat Hillary in 2016...He said that the Democrats would lose if they change course now, and that their best chance to win is to stay the course. I understand many disagree with him and with me,  but there would be chaos and lack of solidifying around one person probably as there are the Kamala Harris folks who think she would be the heir and then there are those who think she isn't strong enough and would want Whitmar or Shapiro or Wes Moore, etc...The polling recently still showed the race in a dead heat. I understand why people are anxious but Biden's whole life has been about getting up after adversity. He has looked worn out this past term but manages to make very wise decisions on the world stage. He masterfully gathered NATO together to fight Putin and support Ukraine. He has a great plan for the Middle East. I think throwing an unknown out to many people now would not be a good move. I hope he can do well in the interviews and in the rally's ahead. Love, Joanie


07/03/24 12:00 PM #17201    

 

Jay Shackford

How To Scare the Shit Out of Donald Trump 

By Dead-Center Shacks

July 3, 2024

 

 

As life-long Democrats, we need to acknowledge the obvious and the cold, hard truth about presidential politics.  In Washington, you have no permanent friends or permanent enemies. And we can’t unsee or reverse what we witnessed in last Thursday night’s debate.

 

As one thirty something (and I talked and texted with five of them during and immediately after the debate) told me five minutes into the debate: “Biden looks awful. I can’t understand what he is saying. He’s incoherent. He’s looks weak and scared.  I can’t vote for that guy.”

 

That impression is forever etched into their minds.  And remember that the election will be determined by several hundred thousand voters in six or so battleground states.  Young voters will be critical to the outcome.  

 

Forget about Biden’s impressive record of accomplishments and his half century of service to our country.  David Remnick, Ezra Klein, Thomas Friedman and the New York Times editorial board all love President Biden and what he’s done over the past four years — first soundly defeating a bat-shit crazy and grossly incompetent Donald Trump in 2020 and then bringing the country out of a 100-year pandemic, rebuilding a battered economy, and restoring competency and good policy-making over the past three and a half years. And if the choice comes down to Joe Biden vs. Donald Trump again, they will support and vote for Biden, as will I.     

 

But those guys don’t count.  It’s the undecided voters in the battleground states who will decide this election.  And that’s why the Democratic Party needs to tackle head on:  Who has the best chance of defeating Donald Trump on Nov. 5?  

 

For my high school classmates reading my posts on the BCC Forum, don’t get too upset over Nori’s posts poking fun at Joe Biden Thursday night’s performance or her calls for him to take a competency test.  If I were in her shoes, I would be doing the same. 

 

After all, Nori’s been taking incoming from me and others on the BCC forum since 2015 on Trump’s lack of competency and fitness as well as his bat-shit crazy policy ideas to become a dictator on day one, abandon NATO and Ukraine that could lead to WW III in Europe, imprison his political enemies, support a nationwide ban on all abortions (and Trump  will sign the bill), impose a 100% tariff on all goods imported from China that would clear the shelves and send Walmart and other big discount stores into bankruptcy and re-inflate the fires of inflation and deregulate — with the help of the Supreme Court’s 6-3 Chevron decision last week  and the 5-4 Citizens United decision in 2010 — the oil and energy industries, a move that would accelerate the existential threat of climate change in exchange for a $1 billion contribution to Trump’s campaign.  

 

Again, dark money political contributions of that sort — nothing less than a quid pro quo — can be made thanks to the 2010 Citizens United decision that reversed century-old campaign finance restrictions and enabled corporations and other special interest groups and private donors to spend unlimited funds through Super PACs.   

 

And let’s be honest. Joe Biden and his die-hard supporters haven’t done much to restore faith in his presidential run since last Thursday except for circling the wagons.  What do you expect — his family and staff to abandon him when he needs their support the most?  That’s not going to happen. 

 

But Joe is losing support in the most recent polls and in the hallways of Congress.  And even Barack Obama concedes that Biden’s reelection has become more difficult to achieve after the debate, according to the Washington Post and other news organizations.   That makes Joe’s re-election all that more less likely. And honestly, most of us Dems thought that Joe Biden would be a one-term President back in 2020 when he first won the nomination.   

 

As David Remnick wrote in The New Yorker, “For the President to insist on remaining the Democratic candidate would be an act not only of self-delusion but of national endangerment …and could bring the country closer to another Trump Presidency and with it a diminishment of liberal democracy.”

 

All hope is not lost.  Allowing for an open convention would be risky but it could also reenergize the Democratic faithful, particularly young voters who were disillusioned with Biden even before last Thursday’s debate but are still reluctant to throw their support behind Donald Trump.   

 

Moreover, the Democrats have a deep bench—a new generation of leaders who are smart, experienced and capable of defeating Donald Trump.  It would add some excitement and vigor to the campaign.  Believe me, a Gavin Newsom/Gretchen Whitmer ticket would scare the shit out of Donald Trump and force him to cancel the scheduled September debate.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


07/03/24 12:53 PM #17202    

 

Glen Hirose

         Have a Happy   4th of July      

                   Delicious side dishes ...


07/03/24 01:24 PM #17203    

 

Jack Mallory

What Jay said. I can't find anything to disagree with. I must be getting old. 
 


 


07/03/24 01:39 PM #17204    

 

Stephen Hatchett

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.

H. L. Mencken

 

A quote I kinda wish I could stop thinking of.


07/03/24 01:56 PM #17205    

 

Stephen Hatchett

Yes, I'd love to see Trump debate Gavin Newsom or Kamala Harris. Either would mop the floor with him.


07/03/24 02:58 PM #17206    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Ok friends I'm the lone dissenter. I agree with Professor Alan lichtman that our best chance to beat Trump is to stay with the Biden/Harris ticket.. Love, Joanie

07/03/24 09:09 PM #17207    

 

Robert Hall

Jay's post is spot on from my perspective. There would be no shame if Joe backed out and his record would be well remembered and untarnished, but people would blame him if he lost in November. If he's the candidate then we would vote for him as will the majority of Americans. But it is so very sobering to think that fewer than 100,000 voters could swing the electoral college, and the election, to a second four years of decay and chaos under someone who couldn't be trusted to deliver a rock down a well.

07/03/24 09:36 PM #17208    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

https://gsas.harvard.edu/news/why-joe-biden-should-stay-race

Whatever you thought of Joe Biden's debate performance, and I agree it was very bad, it still is so disappointing that the media doesn't talk much at all about the lies Trump told the whole night. Perhaps the polling for Joe Biden would be better if the lies of Trump were touted over and over again by the media.

Article by the Philadelphia Inquirer

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-philadelphia-inquirer-calls-on-trump-to-drop-out-of-presidential-race-he-mainly-spews-raw-sewage/ar-BB1p85yl

Love, Joanie


07/04/24 05:39 AM #17209    

 

Jack Mallory

Another BCCite, another Mallory. 


Brother Mark:

"I am a decades long fan and supporter of Joe Biden. His debate performance last week cannot be overcome by the passage of time or any attempts to spin the issue as a mere blip. For all of the reasons cited more articulately than I could ever manage by Paul Krugman, Maureen Dowd, Tom Friedman, Jon Stewart, etc., this has to end, with an open convention to take the focus off Trump and on to the many great prospects in the Democratic Party and their ideas, as the only way to avoid a catastrophic loss of the presidency, and the Senate, and the House, to lunacy. Four years with them in control, which woud be the probable outcome, may not end the Rebublic as we know it, but it might. 

"Please write, as I just did, to your Senators and Congresspeople to urge them to urge Joe to bow out gracefully. Only massive and persistent pressure from those of us, whether formallly friends or foes of Biden, willl maybe succeed in pushing him to do the obviously right thing.

"Spread these thoughts or your own ASAP, there is not much time left."

Brother Bruce hasn't provided as succinct a statement, but I  know he agrees.

 


07/04/24 07:05 AM #17210    

 

Joanie Bender (Grosfeld)

Jack, I think that would be a sure way for us to lose, but I klnow I am the only one on the forum that feels this way. Love, Joanie

As for polls Dukakis was up 17 points and lost to George H Walker Bush. Everyone predicted from polls that Hillary would win but Alan Lichtman for the most part and she lost...


go to top 
  Post Message
  
    Prior Page
 Page  
Next Page      

agape